# Did Muhammad Exist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284 "2010-05-04T14:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/21 "2010-05-05T11:09:33Z")
This is an English-speaking board, and in English (at least American English), when we use the word Islam, we are referring to the religious faith which views the Qu’ran as its primary religious text. And when people say that “Muhammad created Islam” what they mean is that Muhammad is the individual who claimed divine revelation for what is recorded in the Qu’ran. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/22 "2010-05-05T11:13:41Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > We are talking about a word here ‘Islam’. Uh, no mate, the subject was Mohammed and his historical existence. > [@](#): > > It’s not important what historians believe, it’s important to translate the word correctly and it’s meaning by Arabs whose language it is. > So Islam is the practice of following ‘one God’ one Allah. Ummmm, well as we’re talking about **historical Mohammed** and not anything else, I’d say mate that only what proper historians believe is the subject of importance. > [@](#): > > illaha means the word god/deity. > > Allah is God’s actual name. Allah does not mean deity as some people think. Well… I am not here to argue your apparently very interesting take on linguistics via religion, but has fuck all to do with the subject. > [@](#): > > So anyone if you are talking in Arabic who believes in ‘one God’ is following Islam. A belief in only one god, and that god is the god of the Abrahamic faiths name is Allah in Arabic. > > Jews and Christians therefore follow Islam. A belief in one god.😉 Uhuh. Well, from your special POV, but certainly doesn’t match common usage… > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > are you an Arab or Arabic speaker? > > What does Islam mean in Arabic then? Submission or some such, so? Has fuck all to do with the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/23 "2010-05-05T11:35:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re discussing whether or not Muhammad existed, so yes, what historians believe is important. They’re the ones who look at stories like these and find out what they’re based on. So I disagree with you, and you’re going to get people on this site to agree with you on this point. Muslims believe all people of the book are Muslims. Fine. Historically, the religion was founded by Muhammad about 1400 years ago. Not that I’m a historian but I’ve never heard anyone suggest Muhammad didn’t exist. > We know. That’s the first thing you hear about Islam in any school textbook, and most of us probably heard it in high school. If you look back at my original post I had quoted someone and I was rebutting his statement. \*\* Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post who may or may not be directly responsible for the creation of Islam.\*\* I was not discussing whether or not Mohammed existed or not. So in that context a historians view in what I was replying to was not important.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/24 "2010-05-05T11:40:39Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > This is an English-speaking board, and in English (at least American English), when we use the word Islam, we are referring to the religious faith which views the Qu’ran as its primary religious text. And when people say that “Muhammad created Islam” what they mean is that Muhammad is the individual who claimed divine revelation for what is recorded in the Qu’ran. That’s fine but I just wanted to make sure that no one here was thinking that Muslims think Islam is a purely Mohammedan religion. They don’t;) ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/25 "2010-05-05T11:47:38Z")
\*\*Uhuh. Well, from your special POV, but certainly doesn’t match common usage… \*\* I’m very new to this board so I have no idea as yet who is who or where they come from so do not know what members common usage is. Many member do not do not have location. So forgive my ignorance. As I said I was replying to the quote. You will find that if you studied outside your ‘common usage’ to what it actually means you would see that it was not my ‘special point of view’ It is the view of Arabic speakers. It is after all an Arabic word. We maybe have both learned something here today. I certainly have. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/26 "2010-05-05T12:02:42Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > So anyone if you are talking in Arabic who believes in ‘one God’ is following Islam. A belief in only one god, and that god is the god of the Abrahamic faiths name is Allah in Arabic. > > Jews and Christians therefore follow Islam. A belief in one god.😉 [Churches Attacked in Malaysian ‘Allah’ Dispute](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/world/asia/09malaysia.html) > [@](#): > > KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Three Christian churches were attacked with firebombs Friday as tensions rose in a dispute over whether Christians could use the word “Allah” in this largely Muslim nation. > > Later in the day, small crowds rallied outside two major mosques in the capital, in a growing protest over a court ruling that overturned a government ban on the use of “Allah” by Roman Catholics as a translation for God. > > [. . .] > > “Allah is only for us,” said Faedzah Fuad, 28, who participated in the rally. “The Christians can use any word, we don’t care, but please don’t use the word Allah.” Feel free to begin your tapdancing. Just don’t firebomb me, bro! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/27 "2010-05-05T12:04:52Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > If you look back at my original post I had quoted someone and I was rebutting his statement. You didn’t really rebut the statement, though. You said Muslims don’t believe Muhammad created Islam. You appeared to be saying it’s a myth that Muhammad created Islam. Maybe you meant it’s a myth that Muslims believe that, but **DCnDC** did not say that’s what they believe. In fact he said it’s not certain that Muhammad is responsible for the founding of the religion. (For one thing all religions have precursors in other teachings.) By the way, you might find the quote tags helpful. If you want to respond to one post, look at the bottom right hand corner of the post and you’ll see a blue oval button that says “Quote.” If you want to respond to several posts at the same time, you can use the mutiquote button, which is just to the right of that button and has a plus sign on it. You can click that button on multiple posts, hit “Reply” once, and respond to all of them. If you want to practice any of that, you can do so in the About This Message Board section of the site. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/28 "2010-05-05T14:51:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By the way, you might find the quote tags helpful. If you want to respond to one post, look at the bottom right hand corner of the post and you’ll see a blue oval button that says “Quote.” If you want to respond to several posts at the same time, you can use the mutiquote button, which is just to the right of that button and has a plus sign on it. You can click that button on multiple posts, hit “Reply” once, and respond to all of them. If you want to practice any of that, you can do so in the About This Message Board section of the site. Heh. You know, I never knew about the multi-quote button either. All these years of ignorance, finally ended. Thanks, **Marley23**! > [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > He took cities and towns, he cut short limbs and lives. > He made orphans and widows of children and wives. > In this course many years he triumphantly ran, > And did mischief enough to be called a Great Man! > > I remember the poem, but I can’t for the life of me remember who wrote it. It seems to be an excerpt from a longer work, “The Pool of the Diving Friar,” written by one Thomas Love Peacock in the early 19th century. You can read the text on Google Books, here: [Illustrated British Ballads, Old and New - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=8Qo9AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA147&lpg=RA1-PA147&dq=He+took+cities+and+towns,+he+cut+short+limbs+and+lives.&source=bl&ots=pXQdj1szl1&sig=_rabG-jUeczDm41DnC7ddxRpU_s&hl=en&ei=NoPhS8nrOIrM8wTQ5oCQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false) Note that, though this is a nitpick, the original referred to the “great man” taking “castles and towns”, not “cities and towns”. It’s a good read, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/29 "2010-05-05T16:03:59Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Islam comes from the root SLM > > This means to submit. 'Bout time there was a religion for the dom-and-sub crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/30 "2010-05-06T01:19:10Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > [Churches Attacked in Malaysian ‘Allah’ Dispute](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/world/asia/09malaysia.html) > > Feel free to begin your tapdancing. Just don’t firebomb me, bro! Speaking as someone who was involved with the Malaysian media at the tail-end of the “Allah” controversy, I’ll just say that the issue is a lot more complicated than that, and that a number of malcontents took advantage of the situation to stir up trouble for their own reasons. The average Malaysian on the streets was as appalled by those outrages as you or I, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/31 "2010-05-06T03:17:23Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Heh. You know, I never knew about the multi-quote button either. All these years of ignorance, finally ended. Thanks, **Marley23**! > > It seems to be an excerpt from a longer work, “The Pool of the Diving Friar,” written by one Thomas Love Peacock in the early 19th century. You can read the text on Google Books, here: [Illustrated British Ballads, Old and New - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=8Qo9AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA147&lpg=RA1-PA147&dq=He+took+cities+and+towns,+he+cut+short+limbs+and+lives.&source=bl&ots=pXQdj1szl1&sig=_rabG-jUeczDm41DnC7ddxRpU_s&hl=en&ei=NoPhS8nrOIrM8wTQ5oCQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false) > > Note that, though this is a nitpick, the original referred to the “great man” taking “castles and towns”, not “cities and towns”. > > It’s a good read, by the way. So it is. Thanks for the reference. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/32 "2010-05-06T03:48:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Muslims believe all people of the book are Muslims. Fine. Historically, the religion was founded by Muhammad about 1400 years ago. Not that I’m a historian but I’ve never heard anyone suggest Muhammad didn’t exist. Eh…it’s obvious that Christians and Jews aren’t Muslims, both because their religions existed long before Islam was founded, are opposed to Islamic theology on numerous significant points and because they don’t self-identify as Muslim… even if some Muslims want to claim that their religion is cool enough that everybody else is really a Muslim. Of course, through years of interfaith study in high school I never heard anybody at any mosque we studied at say that we were Muslims too. In fact, They did say that one has to say the whole ‘no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet’ thang in order to be a Muslim, but that’s neither here nor there. What I am curious about is the idea that Mohammad may or may not have founded Islam. Do we have a fairly stable date for its founding and a time/place where the Koran was most likely written? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard anything about there being legitimate doubt about the circumstances surrounding the founding of Islam. If not Mohammad, then who? And it’s funny, but I never thought about what religion it came from. While it traces its roots to Judaism and has some specific divergences with it (the whole Ishmael dynamic and such) I never understood that Mohammad was a Jew or that he crafted Islam from Judaism. What’s the most likely hypothesis about what religion Mohammad was a member of before he (or whoever else) invented Islam and what theological soil Islam sprang from? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/33 "2010-05-06T05:46:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What I am curious about is the idea that Mohammad may or may not have founded Islam. Do we have a fairly stable date for its founding and a time/place where the Koran was most likely written? Traditionally ( Muslim tradition ) it was first produced in written form under the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, a few months after Muhammad’s death. It was then supposedly re-collated under Uthman, the third Caliph, in the mid-7th century. Previously it would have been memorized as an oral history. The oldest fragmented example we have probably dates somewhere to opening of the 8th century, though possible back into late 7th. So a little less than a century after Muhammad’s purported death. The oldest _complete_ copy dates to the 9th. > [@](#): > > While it traces its roots to Judaism and has some specific divergences with it (the whole Ishmael dynamic and such) The Ishmael thing somewhat post-dates Muhammad and seems to derive from Ibn al-Khalbi, who was born just about a century after Muhammad died. Though Muhammad did place some special emphasis on Ishmael as a prophet, the purported genealogical connection seems to come from al-Khalbi. > [@](#): > > I never understood that Mohammad was a Jew or that he crafted Islam from Judaism. What’s the most likely hypothesis about what religion Mohammad was a member of before he (or whoever else) invented Islam and what theological soil Islam sprang from? He was a Semitic pagan. The head of the pantheon and the only one apparently not memorialized by a particular idol was Allah. But other deities such a Hubal, Manat, al-Lat and al-Uzza were worshiped as well ( the latter three were female aspected and traditionally labeled as “the daughters of Allah” ). Manat was particularly favored by the Aws and Khazraj tribes in Medina, al-Lat had her principal shrine in Ta’if and was the principal deity of the Thaqif, while al-Uzza was the newest and was particularly favored in Mecca and by Muhammad’s tribe, the Quraysh. According to the above mentioned Ibn al-Khalbi, Muhammad himself was a devotee of al-Uzza. The pre-Islamic Arabs of Mecca did have some regular exposure to Judaism ( assorted tribes ) and somewhat more remote exposure to Christianity. A decent book on this topic is F. E. Peters’ Muhammad and the Origins of Islam ( 1994, SUNY Press ). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/34 "2010-05-06T06:09:58Z")
Thanks Tamerlane. I’ll check that book out at some point, maybe I can arrange some sort of inter-library loan or find an E copy. I may collect my thoughts and questions and post again in a concise form so I don’t just blast a query geyser at you. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/35 "2010-05-06T06:52:09Z")
I’d love to see **Tamerlane** do a Staff Report on this question. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/36 "2010-05-06T06:58:46Z")
The best non-Muslim evidence is from the Byzantine empire. [The Emperor Heraclius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius) received emissaries from Muhammad and engaged in some correspondence with the prophet (or rather his clerks since Muhammad himself was illiterate), fragments of which survive. It was clear that the Byzantines regarded him as a real person and there is no reason not to today. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/37 "2010-05-06T11:33:03Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The best non-Muslim evidence is from the Byzantine empire. [The Emperor Heraclius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius) received emissaries from Muhammad and engaged in some correspondence with the prophet (or rather his clerks since Muhammad himself was illiterate), fragments of which survive. It was clear that the Byzantines regarded him as a real person and there is no reason not to today. Do you have a cite for this? I couldn’t find any reference to it on wikipedia, which only mentions Arabic records of Heraclius, and not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/38 "2010-05-06T12:34:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh…it’s obvious that Christians and Jews aren’t Muslims, both because their religions existed long before Islam was founded, are opposed to Islamic theology on numerous significant points and because they don’t self-identify as Muslim… even if some Muslims want to claim that their religion is cool enough that everybody else is really a Muslim. > Of course, through years of interfaith study in high school I never heard anybody at any mosque we studied at say that we were Muslims too. In fact, They did say that one has to say the whole ‘no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet’ thang in order to be a Muslim, but that’s neither here nor there. > > What I am curious about is the idea that Mohammad may or may not have founded Islam. Do we have a fairly stable date for its founding and a time/place where the Koran was most likely written? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard anything about there being legitimate doubt about the circumstances surrounding the founding of Islam. If not Mohammad, then who? And it’s funny, but I never thought about what religion it came from. While it traces its roots to Judaism and has some specific divergences with it (the whole Ishmael dynamic and such) I never understood that Mohammad was a Jew or that he crafted Islam from Judaism. What’s the most likely hypothesis about what religion Mohammad was a member of before he (or whoever else) invented Islam and what theological soil Islam sprang from? I’m beginning to think I am talking in Japanese here:D Why is no one here getting what I say? To Arabs, Arabic speakers the word Muslim MEANS someone who follows Islam. The Arabic word Islam means a submitter, to submit. In the context of the Quran it is used to describe someone who submits to ONE GOD. Now unless you believe in more than one god then in ARABIC and when you talk to Arabs you are a Muslim if you are Christian and Jew. I was never talking about how non Arabic speakers interpret the word. Neither out of the context of the Quran which we were discussing. If there is a native Arabic speaker near you please for the love of God ask him in his language Arabic does the word Islam mean in the context of the Quran a submitter to ONE GOD. If he says yes which he will then ask him this. Is a muslim then a follower of islam? He will reply yes. Then ask him this ‘If I worship one God and I am a Jew’ does that make me according to the word Muslim a muslim and he will say yes. If you are Christian and say however you worship saints, crosses, bow down to statues etc then he will say then you are not a Muslim. That is why I said earlier that Jews are in fact closer to Islam than Christians are. ie worshiping only God like it says in the 10 commandments. It’s the first commandment. ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’ If you are praying to statues and prophets then you have just broken the first commandment haven’t you? Another example of where they are closer than Christians is in the 2nd commandment ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’ So having crosses statues of saints is breaking his 2nd commandment when you worship statues. Number 3 commandment ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’ both Jews and (Muslims if you want to use that term) to define them do not call God Jesus at any time. In akkadian the lost semitic language ‘elu’ means god, very close to ala in Arabic, elohim pl many gods. Number 4 ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’ Both Jews and Muslims have Friday. Christians have Sunday. To answer your second paragraph Why do you think God sent prophet after prophet to the Jews? Think about it. Believers in Islam believe that they strayed from God’s word. They strayed from Islam and what it meant. Why? because they began to worship money, the golden calf etc. It was when they were in Sinai with Moses and flitting between worshipping God and the calf, ( they always worshipped money) that God sent the 10 commandments to them. The torah was distorted. That is why you see different sects. So would it be so far fetched to think that because of that, just maybe they strayed from what is known as Islam? That belief. As I said Islam is a belief in One God in this context. Can you not see that? The final prophet to them was Jesus. He was their last chance. What did they do to him? The next prophet if you believe it was sent not for the Jews. Everything up to then had been to them. The next one was for ‘mankind’. Not exclusively for any people, but for people of all races, colours and nations. That one was the seal. That one was Mohammed. He was purely coming to not set up a new religion, but to affirm the one there already. Look back in time. Praying 5 times a day was not exclusive to only todays Muslims. Catholic have the Canonical hours. Henry the 8th prayed 5 times a day. His wives all wore head coverings. See the similarities? You cannot judge Christanity by what you see today where only the clergy pray canonical hours. So Mohammed was not some new radical thinker, bringing a new religion. He was reaffirming what was always there. Jesus prostrated in prayer. It’s all over the bible and torah, so why is is so weird to see the mosque today full of men still keeping that tradition to everyone? He brought the final book. The Quran. If you read it it says that the previous books have been corrupted. Is that not true? Is there only one bible? I think there are many variations aren’t there. So what has been corrupted in the Torah? what is the new testament all about? How many chapters and stories are apocryphal? Doubt and debate about? Think about it. So that is why Muslims believe that the Quran was sent as the seal till judgement day. It was to remain in Arabic and never to be changed like the bible. If you read one Quran it will be the same as every one ever printed. God done that so that it would never be corrupted. However even though it is still in Arabic and most Muslims are not native speakers, it is still misinterpreted, but we are human. The Quran was for everyone. It kind of completes the set if you like. Sure there are a load of nuts out there like Bin Laden who change what the verses mean, but that’s their problem. So really you need to rethink what you have been told and read the Quran and then judge it. If you are Christian more than Jew particularly. As a starting point look back in history and see how many times a day Christians prayed, then go from there. ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/39 "2010-05-06T12:35:00Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Traditionally ( Muslim tradition ) it was first produced in written form under the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, a few months after Muhammad’s death. It was then supposedly re-collated under Uthman, the third Caliph, in the mid-7th century. Previously it would have been memorized as an oral history. > > The oldest fragmented example we have probably dates somewhere to opening of the 8th century, though possible back into late 7th. So a little less than a century after Muhammad’s purported death. The oldest _complete_ copy dates to the 9th. > > The Ishmael thing somewhat post-dates Muhammad and seems to derive from Ibn al-Khalbi, who was born just about a century after Muhammad died. Though Muhammad did place some special emphasis on Ishmael as a prophet, the purported genealogical connection seems to come from al-Khalbi. > > He was a Semitic pagan. The head of the pantheon and the only one apparently not memorialized by a particular idol was Allah. But other deities such a Hubal, Manat, al-Lat and al-Uzza were worshiped as well ( the latter three were female aspected and traditionally labeled as “the daughters of Allah” ). Manat was particularly favored by the Aws and Khazraj tribes in Medina, al-Lat had her principal shrine in Ta’if and was the principal deity of the Thaqif, while al-Uzza was the newest and was particularly favored in Mecca and by Muhammad’s tribe, the Quraysh. According to the above mentioned Ibn al-Khalbi, Muhammad himself was a devotee of al-Uzza. > > The pre-Islamic Arabs of Mecca did have some regular exposure to Judaism ( assorted tribes ) and somewhat more remote exposure to Christianity. > > A decent book on this topic is F. E. Peters’ Muhammad and the Origins of Islam ( 1994, SUNY Press ). Muhammad himself, wasn’t a pagan. Muhammad is said to have belonged to a group of people during that time who rejected the idolatry and paganism that most of the Arabs had fallen plague to and instead chose to worship one God. This was one of the pre-conditions of prophethood, of course, since God would never choose an idolatrer to be his messenger. His tribe, though, was a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/40 "2010-05-06T12:41:58Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I’m beginning to think I am talking in Japanese here:D > > Why is no one here getting what I say? Probably because it’s not related to the subject we were discussing, which is whether or not there is historical evidence Muhammad existed. What you’re talking about is how Muslims view their own religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284.md?page=3)