# Did Muhammad Exist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284 "2010-05-04T14:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/41 "2010-05-06T12:46:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You didn’t really rebut the statement, though. You said Muslims don’t believe Muhammad created Islam. You appeared to be saying it’s a myth that Muhammad created Islam. Maybe you meant it’s a myth that Muslims believe that, but **DCnDC** did not say that’s what they believe. In fact he said it’s not certain that Muhammad is responsible for the founding of the religion. (For one thing all religions have precursors in other teachings.) > > By the way, you might find the quote tags helpful. If you want to respond to one post, look at the bottom right hand corner of the post and you’ll see a blue oval button that says “Quote.” If you want to respond to several posts at the same time, you can use the mutiquote button, which is just to the right of that button and has a plus sign on it. You can click that button on multiple posts, hit “Reply” once, and respond to all of them. If you want to practice any of that, you can do so in the About This Message Board section of the site. thank you for the quote help:) Okay for arguments sake I will only talk about the word Muslim here as it were today’s follower who prays in a mosque. That Muslim does not believe that Mohammed created Islam. To him Islam was always there to anyone who believed in God and if you ask him he will most likely say that Adam was the first Muslim because he spoke to him. He was the first man created. God asked him to worship him, that was the start of Islam. That was the time also that he asked Satan to worship him, and we all know the story of Satan being banished. It’s about worshiping the only thing known then when earth was created which was God/Allah. There were no other God’s to worship. It was man who started to make other Gods and worship other things. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/42 "2010-05-06T12:50:41Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > That Muslim does not believe that Mohammed created Islam. To him Islam was always there to anyone who believed in God Which has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/43 "2010-05-06T12:52:01Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > [Churches Attacked in Malaysian ‘Allah’ Dispute](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/world/asia/09malaysia.html) > > Feel free to begin your tapdancing. Just don’t firebomb me, bro! Crazy Malaysians is all I can say. Ignorant Muslims whose native language is not Arabic. Allah is Gods name. It’s just his name to identify him from other gods. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should be offended by anyone using God name if they believe in one God. End of story ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/44 "2010-05-06T12:56:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 'Bout time there was a religion for the dom-and-sub crowd. we are talking about a language here and what words mean. You could also say you submitted an application form.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/45 "2010-05-06T12:57:36Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Speaking as someone who was involved with the Malaysian media at the tail-end of the “Allah” controversy, I’ll just say that the issue is a lot more complicated than that, and that a number of malcontents took advantage of the situation to stir up trouble for their own reasons. > > The average Malaysian on the streets was as appalled by those outrages as you or I, FWIW. as any sane person would be;) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/46 "2010-05-06T12:59:28Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > You could also say you submitted an application form.:rolleyes: So, submitting to Allah is analogous to submitting an application form? 😕 What is it you’re submitting to him, and does it matter if you forget to use the new cover to the TPS report? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/47 "2010-05-06T13:11:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Probably because it’s not related to the subject we were discussing, which is whether or not there is historical evidence Muhammad existed. What you’re talking about is how Muslims view their own religion. oh God okay forget it ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/48 "2010-05-06T13:13:29Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > we are talking about a language here and what words mean. You’re the only person talking about this. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/49 "2010-05-06T13:14:08Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So, submitting to Allah is analogous to submitting an application form? 😕 What is it you’re submitting to him, and does it matter if you forget to use the new cover to the TPS report? dear God are you stupid? 😕 the WORD!!! For the stupid out there yet again!!! The Word ‘Islam’ in Arabic means to SUBMIT… ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/50 "2010-05-06T13:17:02Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > You’re the only person talking about this. clearly I am not because you are all answering me and asking me and hardly any of the posts have been about the title! You are all bloody well quoting me and I am replying to your quotes. Is it a language thing here? is it just stupidity? what is it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/51 "2010-05-06T13:26:30Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > dear God are you stupid? 😕 Alright, enough is enough. Please read the rules of this forum, **Marmite Lover**. You’re not allowed to call people stupid or otherwise insult them unless you are posting in The BBQ Pit, which you are not doing right now. So stop this immediately. **BrainGlutton** and **Koxinga** were making jokes. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > clearly I am not because you are all answering me and asking me and hardly any of the posts have been about the title! > You are all bloody well quoting me and I am replying to your quotes. If you want to keep discussing what Muslims believe about the origin of Islam, please start a different thread. I understand you were responding to something **DCnDC** said (although your reply was kind of tangential). The original topic may have been covered already, but we don’t know because we’re now spending more time talking about topics that are only somewhat related to it. Let’s take a time out and separate these subjects. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/52 "2010-05-06T13:27:59Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > clearly I am not because you are all answering me and asking me and hardly any of the posts have been about the title! > You are all bloody well quoting me and I am replying to your quotes. > > Is it a language thing here? > > is it just stupidity? what is it? > :dubious: :rolleyes:sigh Let me spell it out for you. The OP was about the historical Mohammed. You came in and made a point about the meaning of the word “Islam” which while technically correct in the context of the Arab language, here in America and most of the world the word is understood to mean the Muslim religion, **not** the literal Arab meaning of “one god.” Then you started proselytizing and making odd off-topic statements that are arguments in response to no one. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/53 "2010-05-06T13:30:38Z")
submit . . . a form? 😕 what kind of form? is it an application, or a notification? Does it matter what kind of paper you use? I’m so confused . . . ETA: maybe it’s like a contest. An art contest? Maybe I should make a nice drawing of Muhammed and submit it . . . ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/54 "2010-05-06T13:30:54Z")
I’ve just gone back to re read this thread it and it seems this is how it goes according to the posters here. Question Did Mohammed exist? So it seems that even if someone put something in their answer to that question at the end, which another poster disagrees with or is trying to explain that he was not responsible, ie " who may or may not be directly responsible for the creation of Islam. " the other posters are not to reply to that part of the post. Is that it? So I could make a post saying Question Does the moon exist. and if someone answers “yes I have seen it and apparently it is made of cheese” The other posters should not challenge, correct or discuss that part of the reply which mentions cheese" Got it ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/55 "2010-05-06T13:33:26Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > submit . . . a form? 😕 what kind of form? is it an application, or a notification? Does it matter what kind of paper you use? I’m so confused . . . send it by e mail so it gets there:D ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/56 "2010-05-06T13:35:14Z")
“Islam” to you - “one god.” Got it. Thanks for the clarification. “Islam” to everyone else here - the Muslim religion. Understand? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/57 "2010-05-06T13:42:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Alright, enough is enough. Please read the rules of this forum, **Marmite Lover**. You’re not allowed to call people stupid or otherwise insult them unless you are posting in The BBQ Pit, which you are not doing right now. So stop this immediately. **BrainGlutton** and **Koxinga** were making jokes. > . so it appears that WMfellows reply to me in the first page is okay then? F### is okay? got it DCnDC I’m assuming you are in Washington that explains it ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/58 "2010-05-06T13:42:35Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I’ve just gone back to re read this thread it and it seems this is how it goes according to the posters here. > > Question > Did Mohammed exist? > > So it seems that even if someone put something in their answer to that question at the end, which another poster disagrees with or is trying to explain that he was not responsible, ie " who may or may not be directly responsible for the creation of Islam. " the other posters are not to reply to that part of the post. > > Is that it? Basically you defined Islam differently than the way most people use it. It’s not a definition you made up, but you were using the word in a way most non-Muslims don’t. From there we’ve mostly been trying to straighten out what you were saying and establish that what Muslims believe about their own religion is not the same as the historical record. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > so it appears that WMfellows reply to me in the first page is okay then? > > F### is okay? Yes, it is. Saying fuck is not a problem. Talking about religions or groups is not a problem. Insulting other posters isn’t allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/59 "2010-05-06T15:06:17Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Question > Did Mohammed exist? You are talking theology, and everyone else is talking history. Islam theologically means submission to the one true God. That’s fine - it is common to all the Abrahamic faiths. Jews, Christians and Muslims all agree - there is one true God which we all ought to worship. But there is a subset of believers who teach that we ought to worship God by praying five times a day, confessing Muhammad as the last prophet, giving of alms, fasting during Ramadan, and making the pilgrimage to Mecca. The question under discussion is “was there a guy named Muhammad who founded a religion that teaches that God should be worshipped in those five specific ways?” We are not saying that he preached a new God,; we are saying that he preached a new way of worshipping the same God that Jews and Christians do. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284/60 "2010-05-06T15:47:04Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The best non-Muslim evidence is from the Byzantine empire. [The Emperor Heraclius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius) received emissaries from Muhammad and engaged in some correspondence with the prophet (or rather his clerks since Muhammad himself was illiterate), fragments of which survive. It was clear that the Byzantines regarded him as a real person and there is no reason not to today. [The surviiving correspondance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_career_of_Muhammad#cite_note-Nadia-45) appears to have been a single letter written by Mohammad and transmitted to us soley by Arabic sources. There seems to be some debate as to its authenticity, but in anycase the only proof that the Byzantines corresponded with Mohammad are from the Arabic side. WIkipedia has a webpage on the Historicity of Mohammad. They claim the earliest outside sources regarding him date to the latter half of the 7th century, several decades after his death (the page isn’t well written though, its hard to tell if these are the earliest sources for the existance of Mohmmad, or just the earliest sources of biographcial information regarding him). In anycase, while these post-date the Prophets death, I’d say they’re close enough to verify that he must’ve at least existed. I can buy that fictional traditions regarding him might’ve sprung up soon after his death but its hard to believe that his entire existence would’ve been made up whole cloth when the time period claimed for his life was still in living memory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-muhammad-exist/538284.md?page=4)