# Did Murdoch walk into Obamatrap? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553 "2011-07-19T06:50:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/21 "2011-07-19T12:53:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Do you have any evidence at all Obama made any decision concerning Murdoch’s current predicament? Or any evidence that Murdoch has some guilt in the matter, apart from the general theory that the master is liable for the acts of the servant? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/22 "2011-07-19T13:01:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or any evidence that Murdoch has some guilt in the matter, apart from the general theory that the master is liable for the acts of the servant? Servant? Probably not. Servant **s**? One has to wonder. To paraphrase Lady Bracknell: to have one employee investigated for criminal behavior may be regarded as a misfortune; to have it happen to several looks like carelessness. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/23 "2011-07-19T13:03:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > apart from the general theory that the master is liable for the acts of the servant? It’s known as “command responsibility”, and it’s a perfectly valid theory. If he ordered it then he’s guilty of ordering it, if he didn’t order it but knew about it he’s guilty of not stopping it, and if he didn’t know about it he’s guilty of mismanaging his organization in such a manner that he was not made aware of this information. Also, fishes usually start stinking from the head. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/24 "2011-07-19T13:06:04Z")
Yes, evidence! We don’t want to try him in the press or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/25 "2011-07-19T13:06:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or any evidence that Murdoch has some guilt in the matter, apart from the general theory that the master is liable for the acts of the servant? Well, that’s one of the reasons for the enquiries, as reports from inside the papers are saying that phone tapping and police bribery were endemic and sanctioned by the bosses (however far up those ‘bosses’ might go). Of course he will deny all til he’s backed into a corner, like at every other stage of this fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/26 "2011-07-19T13:06:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or any evidence that Murdoch has some guilt in the matter, apart from the general theory that the master is liable for the acts of the servant? In fact, in Hugh Grant’s undercover taped interview, we get this statement: > [@](#): > > **Me** Do you think Murdoch knew about phone-hacking? > **Him** Errr, possibly not. He’s a funny bloke given that he owns the Sun and the Screws . . . quite puritanical. Sorry to talk about Divine Brown, but when that came out . . . Murdoch was furious: “What are you putting that on our front page for? You’re bringing down the tone of our papers.” [Indicating himself] That’s what we do over here. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/27 "2011-07-19T13:09:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In fact, in Hugh Grant’s undercover taped interview, we get this statement: You left out a relevant bit: > [@](#): > > \*\*Me \*\*Do you think Murdoch knew about phone-hacking? > \*\*Him \*\*Errr, possibly not. He’s a funny bloke given that he owns the Sun and the Screws . . . quite puritanical. Sorry to talk about Divine Brown, but when that came out . . . Murdoch was furious: “What are you putting that on our front page for? You’re bringing down the tone of our papers.” [Indicating himself] That’s what we do over here. > \*\*Me \*\*Well, it’s also because it was his film I was about to come out in. > \*\*Him \*\*Oh. I see. > \*\*Me \*\*Yeah. It was a Fox film. Puritanical perhaps, but also focused on business. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/28 "2011-07-19T13:17:41Z")
So theoretically Obama could implicate some US news companies of sleeze, and this would win him the election how? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/29 "2011-07-19T13:19:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s known as “command responsibility”, and it’s a perfectly valid theory. > > If he ordered it then he’s guilty of ordering it, if he didn’t order it but knew about it he’s guilty of not stopping it, and if he didn’t know about it he’s guilty of mismanaging his organization in such a manner that he was not made aware of this information. > > Also, fishes usually start stinking from the head. Well, it’s a perfectly valid theory with limits. Ordering someone to commit a crime is itself typically a crime. Learning that your company is committing crimes, and not reporting or stopping it, may well be criminal as well. But merely mismanaging your organization so as to be unaware that others are committing crimes? Generally NOT a crime itself. > [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > I’m not making any excuses for Murdoch. He should have been in jail a long time ago. He’s the definition of sleaze. So for this to be true – to say that Murdoch should have been in jail already – we need to allege more than simply, “He’s guilty of mismanaging his organization in such a manner that he was not made aware of this information.” ANd of course it goes without saying that we cannot send someone to jail simply because fish rot from the head. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/30 "2011-07-19T13:20:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You left out a relevant bit:Puritanical perhaps, but also focused on business. SUre. But the point was not whether he’s focused on business, but whether he knew of the phone hacking. Is there any evidence that says he did? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/31 "2011-07-19T13:21:29Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Well, that’s one of the reasons for the enquiries, as reports from inside the papers are saying that phone tapping and police bribery were endemic and sanctioned by the bosses (however far up those ‘bosses’ might go). Of course he will deny all til he’s backed into a corner, like at every other stage of this fiasco. Of course. And of course if he really didn’t know, he will ALSO deny it. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/32 "2011-07-19T13:23:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > SUre. But the point was not whether he’s focused on business, but whether he knew of the phone hacking. > > Is there any evidence that says he did? How will we know without an investigation? ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/33 "2011-07-19T13:27:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I like this idea of using “Obama” as a generic prefix for whatever you don’t like. > > “So I was driving my car and I was trying to pass this Obamagranny and I got an Obamaticket! I had to go to Obamacourt and pay an Obamafine. The Obamajudge put an Obamapoint on my Obamarecord. Now I have to go to Traffic Obamaschool.” Go Obama yourself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/34 "2011-07-19T13:31:44Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Go Obama yourself. Looks like we need to ban a new word on this MB. From now on, no more use of “Obama”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/35 "2011-07-19T13:38:32Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > How will we know without an investigation? Oh, I’m all in favor of an investigation. I’m not in favor of statements like, “He should have been in jail a long time ago,” unless there are some investigation results that support the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/36 "2011-07-19T13:40:14Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Wtf is happening with the world when it is actors (and second rate actors at that) Taking for granted that Grant is a “second-rate actors” (a very disputable point), since when is it that “first-rate actors” have some kind of lock on involvement in matters of public interest? What if he had been a third-rate electrician? Or a first-rate pastry chef? Or a second-rate web developer? It’s pretty clear that Grant is a pretty intelligent guy, so maybe his profession and his relative achievement in that profession really doesn’t tell on the incident he’s gotten involved in. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/37 "2011-07-19T13:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > SUre. But the point was not whether he’s focused on business, but whether he knew of the phone hacking. > > Is there any evidence that says he did? I don’t know yet. Neither do you. That’s the point of the investigation. I was merely pointing out that in the cite you offered which implied that Murdoch didn’t know about the phone hacking because he got upset about the Divine Brown story, there was another explanation offered which did not rely on Murdoch’s “puritanical” nature. I was addressing your quote, not offering proof. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/38 "2011-07-19T13:51:36Z")
Also, when someone says “X should be in jail,” it might be prudent to consider whether it should be interpreted metaphorically rather than be made subject to the rigors of criminal jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/39 "2011-07-19T13:58:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t know yet. Neither do you. That’s the point of the investigation. > > I was merely pointing out that in the cite you offered which implied that Murdoch didn’t know about the phone hacking because he got upset about the Divine Brown story, there was another explanation offered which did not rely on Murdoch’s “puritanical” nature. I was addressing your quote, not offering proof. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553/40 "2011-07-19T14:00:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Also, when someone says “X should be in jail,” it might be prudent to consider whether it should be interpreted metaphorically rather than be made subject to the rigors of criminal jurisprudence. Maybe it should. I don’t know. I guess that point may be clarified by the person making the comment. I think Great Debates should retain at least some measure of rigor, and other forums should be the home of more metaphorical flights of fancy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-murdoch-walk-into-obamatrap/589553.md?page=3)