# Did Neanderthals have souls? (Souls and religion)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 26, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054 "2009-06-26T10:25:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/1 "2009-06-26T10:25:14Z")
Many religions claim a metaphysical side to humanity - a soul - something that survives death and passes on to reward or damnation or to the next cycle or whatever.
But if we have souls, and so did our ancestors, what about the species from which we evolved? What about Cro Magnons? What about species forked from a common ancestor, like Neanderthals? How far back can we go? Primates? At some point we share a common ancestor with cats: do they have souls? What about dinosaurs?
How do the various religions treat these issues?
(I’m putting this in GD because it’s about religion; there may be a GQ or IMHO answer).
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/2 "2009-06-26T10:34:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> Many religions claim a metaphysical side to humanity - a soul - something that survives death and passes on to reward or damnation or to the next cycle or whatever.
>
> But if we have souls, and so did our ancestors, what about the species from which we evolved? What about Cro Magnons? What about species forked from a common ancestor, like Neanderthals? How far back can we go? Primates? At some point we share a common ancestor with cats: do they have souls? What about dinosaurs?
>
> How do the various religions treat these issues?
>
> (I’m putting this in GD because it’s about religion; there may be a GQ or IMHO answer).
I think every sentient creature has a soul appropriate to its level. So, it is possible that pre-Adamic hominids had some sort of soul, just not “child of God” level souls.
A major exception to my first sentence is Adamic humans who are severely mentally impaired. They may be less sentient than your pet cat but they are still children of God while your cat is not.
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### Author:  [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/3 "2009-06-26T11:14:25Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> I think every sentient creature has a soul appropriate to its level. So, it is possible that pre-Adamic hominids had some sort of soul, just not “child of God” level souls.
>
> A major exception to my first sentence is Adamic humans who are severely mentally impaired. They may be less sentient than your pet cat but they are still children of God while your cat is not.
I’m not a bible expert, so could you please direct me to where exactly it says, in the bible, that animals don’'t have souls?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/4 "2009-06-26T11:43:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> I think every sentient creature has a soul appropriate to its level. So, it is possible that pre-Adamic hominids had some sort of soul, just not “child of God” level souls.
At what point during evolution did our ancestors acquire “child of God” level souls?
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### Author:  [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/5 "2009-06-26T11:53:44Z")
I would imagine the Abrahamic religions don’t worry about this at all. Since, in their opinion, there is no such thing as evolution. They believe God put us here.
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### Author:  [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/6 "2009-06-26T11:56:57Z")
Ah, so we’re going with the presumption that humans have souls? I see absolutely no evidence for such a thing, but for the sake of this debate I’ll agree to stipulate it.
If we humans have souls, and are descended from neanderthalls or, more precisely, that humans and neanderthalls branched in different directions from a common ancester, then yes, it stands to reason that neanderthals also had souls, and cro-magnons, as well as any living creature that ever existed. Any stated demarkation from soul-less to soul-equiped is an artificial construct, employed solely to coincide with personal biases of some for the superiority of humanity over “lesser” creatures.
Also, **FriarTed** , with respect, I see no reason for your assertion of levels of souls, unless by ‘soul’ you mean level of self awareness or self conciousness, in which case I can see your point, but that’s not how I’ve known adherents to Christianity to define the soul.
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### Author:  [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/7 "2009-06-26T12:08:00Z")
With tongue only partially in cheek, your question seems incomplete unless you ask if _homo floresiensis_ had a very small soul or if _homo erectus_ had a bipedal soul. (Did _homo sapiens_ souls need parachutes before the airplane was invented?)
I understand that this is great debates and that you’re not looking for a single, objective answer, but I think we’re on the other side of the looking glass here and that any answer will do.
Of religions that posit the type of soul you suggest, I believe many of them handle the question by answering that humans did not evolve from Neanderthals. (Of course, evolutionary theory also states that humans did not evolve from Neanderthals, but that’s not the point.)
So, my take is that your question seeks to reconcile the concept of a theological afterlife with the theory of evolution. The problem is that, from the perspective of evolution, the answer is yes. Or no. It doesn’t matter.
Selective animism is not in anyway useful in classifying living creatures. (Or non-living creatures for that matter.)
I believe that statement is true for theology as well, but there may be adherents to some religions who will disagree.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/8 "2009-06-26T12:20:18Z")
> [@Latro](#):
>
> I’m not a bible expert, so could you please direct me to where exactly it says, in the bible, that animals don’'t have souls?
Actually, it does say they have souls (or more precisely “are souls”). I’m just saying that animals aren’t “children of God”-type souls.
BUT I have known pets who by God have personalities & I won’t be surprised to go into the Afterlife or Resurrection.
I don’t know when hominids acquired ‘CoG’ souls- perhjaps when they were first able to conceive of God/Spirit/Afterlife. Some people think Neandertal burial customs show such conceptions.
Daddypants- don’t confuse the Creationists with all Christians, Jews & Muslims.
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/9 "2009-06-26T12:46:47Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> I think every sentient creature has a soul appropriate to its level. So, it is possible that pre-Adamic hominids had some sort of soul, just not “child of God” level souls.
>
> A major exception to my first sentence is Adamic humans who are severely mentally impaired. They may be less sentient than your pet cat but they are still children of God while your cat is not.
Why would a human be a child of God anymore than any of the rest of creation?Man was the only being(according to the Bible) that was made from dirt. The animals just came from the word of God. And what is the difference between life and soul? If the soul is different, then where does life go? God didn’t use any of His sperm to create man just breathed life into the clay!
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### Author:  [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/10 "2009-06-26T12:49:42Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> Actually, it does say they have souls (or more precisely “are souls”). I’m just saying that animals aren’t “children of God”-type souls.
> BUT I have known pets who by God have personalities & I won’t be surprised to go into the Afterlife or Resurrection.
Yes, it’s important to make the distinction between a “child of god” and merely a really cute “pet of god”.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/11 "2009-06-26T12:57:29Z")
My understanding is all animals have souls, These souls may be aspects of us, the Israelite were told by God to only have/eat ‘clean’ animals, not to mix in other animals - this is the instruction that God gave His people also, stay with your own group, don’t intermarry or live among others. God also called His people several times ‘stiffed necked’, and the animals they raised can be though of as some of the most stubborn (stiff necked) animals with the exception of the lamb (which was required to be part of the clean animals because of Jesus, the Lamb of God). When Paul is given the vision of all animals with the message kill and eat, I believe that is the message that the barrier between the clean Israelites and the gentiles is broken and now all is fair game for the message of God.
IMHO When the Israelites were eating the flesh of the clean animals they were crucifying (killing off) their own flesh by the part of themselves that is in that animal thereby getting rid of their own sinful carnal nature, they are eating the rebellious part of themselves. Now that is open to everyone as God is conforming many to the likeness of His Son.
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### Author:  [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/12 "2009-06-26T12:59:24Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#):
>
> If we humans have souls, and are descended from neanderthalls or, more precisely, that humans and neanderthalls branched in different directions from a common ancester, then yes, it stands to reason that neanderthals also had souls, and cro-magnons, as well as any living creature that ever existed. Any stated demarkation from soul-less to soul-equiped is an artificial construct, employed solely to coincide with personal biases of some for the superiority of humanity over “lesser” creatures.
Well, stipulating for the moment that such things as souls exist, I see no reason why we couldn’t have ‘grown’, or developed, them (or perhaps if one wants to subscribe to a dualist viewpoint, the means necessary to connect with them) at some point in our evolutionary history, the same way we developed opposing thumbs or a neocortex. This doesn’t imply that any other creature must have gone through the same development; of course, it doesn’t preclude it either, so it’s pretty much pick and choose depending on the religion.
Anyway, the real question obviously is: Did Neanderthals have Buddha nature? 😛
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### Author:  [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/13 "2009-06-26T13:48:21Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#):
>
> Did Neanderthals have Buddha nature? 😛
mooooooo
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/14 "2009-06-26T14:06:37Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> A major exception to my first sentence is **Adamic** humans who are severely mentally impaired. They may be less sentient than your pet cat but they are still children of God while your cat is not.
Define, please?
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### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/15 "2009-06-26T15:17:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> My understanding is all animals have souls
Does an amoeba count as an animal?
How come a tree doesn’t have a soul, but a mosquito does?
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### Author:  [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/16 "2009-06-26T15:21:21Z")
> [@glee](#):
>
> Does an amoeba count as an animal?
> How come a tree doesn’t have a soul, but a mosquito does?
I think most tree-huggers would disagree on trees not having souls.
I’ve always felt trees to be distinctly alive, more so than a mosquito.
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### Author:  [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/17 "2009-06-26T15:23:24Z")
No, the didn’t have souls, because there is no such thing as a soul. It’s only a religious idea that in some way references our sentience. Did they have religion? It seems so - I recall reading that they did [bury their dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal#Specimens). [Nother cite.](http://www.ancienthistoryfacts.com/tag/neanderthal-burials)
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/18 "2009-06-26T15:44:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> When Paul is given the vision of all animals with the message kill and eat, I believe that is the message that the barrier between the clean Israelites and the gentiles is broken and now all is fair game for the message of God.
It was Peter, by the way, in the book of Acts, not Paul. I don’t know if there’s any real link between the stubbornness of animals and their kosher status, though. Goats tend to be stubborn, and they’re kosher, but cows and chickens aren’t very stubborn and they’re also kosher. Camels and donkeys are stubborn, and they’re not kosher, but dogs tend not to be stubborn, and they’re also not kosher.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/19 "2009-06-26T16:34:58Z")
Question 1 is what things have souls. Humans? Dogs? Mosquitos? Trees? Rocks?
If Question 1 includes anything more than “just humans”, Question 2 is whether there are gradiations between the different types of souls that different things have. Children of God souls? Pet of God souls?
If Question 1 is “just humans” or Question 2 is “Yes, only humans have CoG souls”, then Question 3 is, keeping souls in mind, do we believe that humans evolved from non-humans?
If Question 3 is “yes”, then Question 4 is, “Can we point to when humans became fully-souled humans rather than not-fully-souled protohumans?”
I suspect that christians as a group are split on Question 1, mostly between “just humans” and “Just humans and cute animals”, with a few outliers that include various other sets of things as ‘souled’. I think that 100% of Christians answer Question 2 with the belief that Human souls are ‘special’, though (assuming they think anything else has souls at all). Regarding Question 3, I think that a most christians don’t ever think of souls and evolution at the same time - they compartmentalize.
And I think that the answer to Question 4 comes from the bible: Adam and Eve were the first humans, and the first things with ‘special’ human souls. Trying to hammer the metaphors out of Genesis is tough to say the least, what with Adam’s forebears being dirt and Eve’s being Adam, but it’s fairly clear that according to that story that first there was just animals, and then God made these two specific humans (who were parselmouths and had problems with fruit), and then those humans made more little humans later through conventional methods. So if there are ‘special’ human souls, they didn’t evolve from un-special souls; they were instead handed out to two newly-created or specially-selected individuals who then started the human species with similar souls ‘inherited’ by their progeny.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/20 "2009-06-26T17:18:38Z")
> [@A.Selene](#):
>
> No, the didn’t have souls, because there is no such thing as a soul.
My OP postulates that there are.
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