# Did Neanderthals have souls? (Souls and religion) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054 "2009-06-26T10:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/41 "2009-06-28T17:44:57Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > All sentient beings have Buddha-nature. In the Jataka stories Gautama Buddha was a rabbit, among other things, so Neanderthal would certainly make the grade. I don’t know of any Jataka stories of Buddha being a Neanderthal, but I wouldn’t put it past him - he got around. > > Oh, also: Moooooooooooooooo Before the Rama-and-Sita and Krishna stories, one previous avatar of Vishnu in Hindu mythology was Rama-with-the-axe, essentially a pre-civilized barbarian. Not quite the same thing, but close enough for metaphysical work! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/42 "2009-06-28T17:50:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Elegant and fascinating. Does modern Christian theology hold that Neanderthals and other hominids also had rational souls? Or is that purely restricted to Homo Sapiens? > > What about other religions? AFAIK, no mainstream Protestant groups have said anything definitive on this. Catholics,. as noted, have no issues with evolution provided that the existence of the individual soul, a direct creation of God, is allowed in. **Friar Ted** has referenced in passing the Evangelical Conservative view – Adam and Eve were historical characters, though not necessarily the first hominids ever, nor necessarily created in 4004 BC – just the first ones endowed with (rational) souls by God. On this take, pre-Adamic hominids may have been around, but would not have had the characters we ascribe exclusively to human beings. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/43 "2009-06-28T18:14:30Z")
Only godless people don’t have souls. Atheists are godless people, Therefore, atheists don’t have souls. They don’t mind because they don’t believe in souls, anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/44 "2009-06-29T02:10:41Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I think every sentient creature has a soul appropriate to its level. So, it is possible that pre-Adamic hominids had some sort of soul, just not “child of God” level souls. > > A major exception to my first sentence is Adamic humans who are severely mentally impaired. They may be less sentient than your pet cat but they are still children of God while your cat is not. What about all the unbaptized babies that have to settle on Limbo? Do they have “child of god” level souls, but that becomes moot since no one dropped water on their forehead and spoke Latin? Or do they also not have “child of god” level souls? I only ask because I remember how scared I became in Catholic grammar school when a classmate’s infant brother died of SIDS and wasn’t baptized yet. Our lay teacher tried her best to sell that Limbo wasn’t all that bad and that it was up to god to grant permission for Limbo baby to have heaven visiting rights. Yeah, them Catholic lay teachers… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/45 "2009-06-29T02:32:32Z")
Limbo was a theory by some Catholic theologians never taught formally by the Church. (What Sr. Mary Ferox may have had to say is not “the teaching of the Church”). It was fairly recently disavowed formally, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/46 "2009-06-29T03:12:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Limbo was a theory by some Catholic theologians never taught formally by the Church. (What Sr. Mary Ferox may have had to say is not “the teaching of the Church”). It was fairly recently disavowed formally, IIRC. It was disavowed recently, not in 1980, though. We were told enough prayers for the baby would help god give said permission. By the time I got to 8th grade, Queen Of Heaven didn’t teach about Limbo anymore, my facebook alumni tell me purgatory is still popular there. (The same teacher also told us that pets don’t go to “human heaven” with us. :dubious: Yes, my kids will be attending PS.) ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/47 "2009-06-29T03:14:30Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Only godless people don’t have souls. > > Atheists are godless people, > > Therefore, atheists don’t have souls. > They don’t mind because they don’t believe in souls, anyways. Damn straight, brutha! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/48 "2009-06-29T12:11:37Z")
If I remember correctly, Jesus is quoted as saying He came that we may have “life” more abundently, didn’t say to save our souls. There is a quote that He states that it is better than losing one’s soul. But why should the soul suffer for what the body does, if the body is just a vessel for the soul? The driver of a car is held responsible if the driver gets the car in an accident, even if the car is faulty. Then the soul is supposed to get a glorified body if the soul is not lost. And how a soul can be lost makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/49 "2009-06-29T14:46:27Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Damn straight, brutha! 😃 Damn Strait? Isn’t that the narrow part of the River Styx? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elizium23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elizium23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elizium23)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/50 "2009-06-29T16:05:22Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > Then your imagination is wrong. Some Christians, including the Catholic church, do believe in evolution (and natural selection). > > The Catholic teaching, IIRC, is that hominids were evolving and becoming more and more intelligent. At some point, God intervened and changed some of them (not necessarily just Adam - Genesis is a metaphor) to make them intelligent enough to understand morality and religion, and gave them souls. I don’t know whether this was before or after the division between Neanderthals and Cromagnons. I’m afraid that while Catholicism embraces evolution, it does stipulate that Adam and Eve were real, historical people: > [@](#): > > In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37). > > The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390). [Catholic Answers: Adam, Eve and Evolution](http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/51 "2009-06-29T22:03:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > According to medieval philosophers and theologians, all living things had souls. Plants had _vegetative souls_ responsible for growth and reproduction; animals, _animal souls_ with the character of plants plus mobility, reaction to stimuli, etc. These two types of souls were generally thought to end with the death of the plant or animal. Humans, uniquely, had _rational souls_ which added to the characteristics of animal souls self-awareness, reason, and a moral sense. By God’s grace these souls were made everlasting, that we might survive bodily death and go to Heaven to be with God. > . My belief is plants is not so much of a soul but just a resource for man (i.e. God provided all seed bearing plants for food for man). The earth is of the womb of humanity, what we consider mother nature, and is a living creation of God, the female aspect that God created to nurture us as a mother nurtures her child providing for all the child’s needs and taking care of all the waste. As a mother, her calling and greatest satisfaction, is to provide all our needs and IMHO our efforts of recycling, resource management, CO2 reduction is saddening to her as those efforts are so meaningless and detract to the standard of living she wants to provide, and causes us to worry about things that don’t matter and it is really foolishness to the level of a fetal child providing his own resources by recycling his waste, but if the fetal child could actually accomplish that the mother would be helpless to intercede. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/52 "2009-07-02T00:08:28Z")
Isn’t the soul the contents of your brain? What else could it be? My crackpot theory (the difference being I admit it) is that when an animal dies, the contents of it’s brain are uploaded to that Great Database in the Sky and scanned for useful information. More highly sentient beings such as ourselves maintain a degree of consciousness even as we become One with Everything. But I think plants, insects, etc, are more like complex little machines and therefore don’t have much of a seat of consciousness to live on after they die. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/53 "2009-07-02T00:12:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As a mother, her calling and greatest satisfaction, is to provide all our needs and IMHO our efforts of recycling, resource management, CO2 reduction is saddening to her as those efforts are so meaningless and detract to the standard of living she wants to provide… You don’t think it’s a good idea not to _abuse_ your mother? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/54 "2009-07-02T11:03:46Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > You don’t think it’s a good idea not to _abuse_ your mother? Our Father and mother desire us to live good lives, and not to worry about things that we can’t effect, or would be way to costly and stunt our development. Dumping extra waste in a attempt to hurt mother earth is one thing, but trying to cut waste to zero is another. We are expected and designed to create a certain amount of waste, and just as a mother can handle the waste produced by a embryo, as population grows she can certainly handle the waste of a 8 month fetus also. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/55 "2009-07-02T11:07:57Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Isn’t the soul the contents of your brain? What else could it be? Scripturally, no the (spiritual) heart is the soul. IMHO the mind is a ‘device’ that takes our sense and thoughts of this world and translates them to our soul and back. It allows though in the physical world that our bodies are in. The physical body, including the mind, is nothing but a ‘tent’ that we (our soul) dwell in. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/56 "2009-07-02T12:06:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …the (spiritual) heart is the soul. Does the spiritual heart (as opposed to the organ that pumps blood) have any observable characteristics? Presuming it does, are souls differentiable? Can one soul be objectively distinguished from another without resorting to standard objective criteria. Would any of the presumptive characteristics of the soul or any of its effects be observable in anthropologically significant ways? Art? Music? Shelter Design? Ritual? Would any of the presumptive characteristics of the soul or any of its effects be observable in the simple physical structure of the body? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/57 "2009-07-02T16:15:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Our Father and mother desire us to live good lives, and not to worry about things that we can’t effect, or would be way to costly and stunt our development. Dumping extra waste in a attempt to hurt mother earth is one thing, but trying to cut waste to zero is another. We are expected and designed to create a certain amount of waste, and just as a mother can handle the waste produced by a embryo, as population grows she can certainly handle the waste of a 8 month fetus also. Nonsense. Our parents raise us to be responsible and not wasteful. They have finite resurces to spend on us and want us to clean up the messes we make instead of trashing the house that they pay for. Parents who spoil their children are considered bad parents, and yet we’re pretty spoiled. And anyway, the “parent” analogy only goes so far. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/58 "2009-07-02T16:21:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Scripturally, no the (spiritual) heart is the soul. IMHO the mind is a ‘device’ that takes our sense and thoughts of this world and translates them to our soul and back. It allows though in the physical world that our bodies are in. The physical body, including the mind, is nothing but a ‘tent’ that we (our soul) dwell in. Sure. Your brain is your hard drive and CPU and your soul is the software that’s loaded into it. You soul includes your memories and that certainly is stored in your brain as data. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/59 "2009-07-03T11:49:37Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Does the spiritual heart (as opposed to the organ that pumps blood) have any observable characteristics? The soul exists in a spiritual dimension, quite possibly in up to 21 dimensional space, for some reason I get that number. Our physical heart just is a additional 3 that is added on to it. As such study of the 3d object is not going to do anything to study the other ?21?, just like studying the mars rovers is not going to tell you anything about the person controlling it. No matter how hard you look at the rover you will never see the controller. It is only after you stop looking at the rover itself and start looking elsewhere that you have a chance of finding the rest. > [@](#): > > Presuming it does, are souls differentiable? Can one soul be objectively distinguished from another without resorting to standard objective criteria. Our souls are meant to combine together into one single body, but for now they have been individualized. Soul ties, through love and lust can combine them together. By man distinguishing between them is impossible, but through the gift of the Holy Spirit they are distinguishable - this gift is called distinguishing between the spirits. > [@](#): > > Would any of the presumptive characteristics of the soul or any of its effects be observable in anthropologically significant ways? Art? Music? Shelter Design? Ritual? Yes and no. If you look into spiritual things with a heart to discover their truth, come to it openly then yes you will see great things, if you come with a hard heart, believing that the spiritual must prove itself to you then the spiritual will basically tell you to go take a hike. You have to follow your heart, which is your core being and the part of you that is in the spiritual dimensions, learn to listen to your heart and think with your heart, instead of listening and thinking with a device (mind) that was never intended to be the main way we think, but just a translator. > [@](#): > > Would any of the presumptive characteristics of the soul or any of its effects be observable in the simple physical structure of the body? Again thinking with your heart, not your head and yes, You can see this in acupuncture and other alternative medicines where some people have learned to feel things like chi and energy channels. You might also be able to sense ‘evil’ or ‘good’ places. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054/60 "2009-07-05T11:31:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The soul exists in a spiritual dimension, quite possibly in up to 21 dimensional space, for some reason I get that number. Our physical heart just is a additional 3 that is added on to it. As such study of the 3d object is not going to do anything to study the other ?21?, just like studying the mars rovers is not going to tell you anything about the person controlling it. No matter how hard you look at the rover you will never see the controller. It is only after you stop looking at the rover itself and start looking elsewhere that you have a chance of finding the rest. > > Our souls are meant to combine together into one single body, but for now they have been individualized. Soul ties, through love and lust can combine them together. By man distinguishing between them is impossible, but through the gift of the Holy Spirit they are distinguishable - this gift is called distinguishing between the spirits. > > Yes and no. If you look into spiritual things with a heart to discover their truth, come to it openly then yes you will see great things, if you come with a hard heart, believing that the spiritual must prove itself to you then the spiritual will basically tell you to go take a hike. You have to follow your heart, which is your core being and the part of you that is in the spiritual dimensions, learn to listen to your heart and think with your heart, instead of listening and thinking with a device (mind) that was never intended to be the main way we think, but just a translator. > > Again thinking with your heart, not your head and yes, You can see this in acupuncture and other alternative medicines where some people have learned to feel things like chi and energy channels. You might also be able to sense ‘evil’ or ‘good’ places. In other words, don’t use your brain,just accept what your idea of the truth is, as you seem to think you know it all, and others don’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-neanderthals-have-souls-souls-and-religion/501054.md?page=4)