# Did Nietszche ever claim to himself be an Übermensch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607 "2025-10-02T17:22:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/1 "2025-10-02T17:22:43Z")
Not that I’ve ever heard, although that’s no guarantee. If not it raises a philosophical question: how did Nietszche claim to be able to anticipate or conceive of what an Übermensch was, while not being able to be one himself? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/2 "2025-10-02T17:28:39Z")
I think you got the meaning of Übermensch wrong: über can mean or imply different things. What he meant was more of a _beyond_ current man than _above_ current man. And he could anticipate the Übermensch (hm, could he really? We are not there yet, it seems to me) because he saw that there were limitations to humans that needed to be overcome (_überwunden_ in German: another _über_ for you). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/3 "2025-10-02T18:11:28Z")
It’s been a while since I’ve read Nietzsche. But it was his own concept, wasn’t it? So he could define the terms. Philosophy is not science. I think he was more making a prediction. He viewed himself as a sort of prophet, which you can see in _Parable of the Madman_ > Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent > and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it > broke into pieces and went out. “I have come too early,” he said then; "my time is not > yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the > ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; > deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more > distant from them than most distant stars—and yet they have done it themselves. (“The deed” being the murder of God) To elaborate a bit, what comes after the death of Judeo-Christian values? A different kind of man. One who decides right and wrong based on what makes him feel vital rather than some words in an ancient book. I don’t think he claimed to be one, but he did try to emulate his ideal. In _Ecce Homo_ he talked a lot about the things he did that made him feel alive, like taking long walks and listening to music. His early works honored the Dyonesian spirit and that’s kind of what he was going for with the ubermensch - someone in touch with what makes them vital in a very physically visceral way, and who also defines their own morality. And I think you could argue he thought people should define their morality based on what makes them feel vital. They were intertwined concepts. (_Ecce Homo_ has fantastic chapter titles like “Why I Am a Destiny” and “Why I Write Such Great Books.” Actually it might do to revisit “Why I Am a Destiny” to answer this question. If he claimed it anywhere, it was probably there.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/4 "2025-10-02T18:26:42Z")
This isn’t letting me copy/paste but here you go: > **[Friedrich Nietzsche – Why I Am a Destiny](https://genius.com/Friedrich-nietzsche-why-i-am-a-destiny-annotated)** > > 1. / I know my fate. There will come a day when my name will recall the memory of something frightful—a crisis the like of which has never been known on earth, the memory of the He clearly thinks he’s the beginning of the whole thing, not the endpoint. I’m pretty sure he was having a manic episode when he wrote this. Nietzsche’s philosophy was very much tied into his personal issues. He had horrible migraines, he suffered from syphilis, he clearly had psychological afflictions. I don’t think he could conceive himself as an ubermensch, but he could conceive himself as the start of it, because he was kind of inverting what was considered strong vs weak. His body was fragile, therefore his ideal man was someone vital. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/5 "2025-10-02T18:32:58Z")
Rather related to the similar problem in science fiction. How can you usefully portray the mental processes of a supergenius mind (human or otherwise), since you aren’t one yourself? All you can do is show the results… you just can’t write it first person. Not that I’m saying Nietzsche was a genius, though he did have a few interesting ideas… ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/6 "2025-10-02T18:39:38Z")
I think he was definitely a genius. He was the youngest philosophy professor in his country’s history. His work was a radical departure from what was the status quo in philosophy at the time. When he published his first work, _The Birth of Tragedy,_ philosophers were _aghast._ What he was doing was a major shock to the system, which is maybe why he had such a big head about it. I think he was a genius and a deeply flawed human being. And I think he had a lot of blind spots because of his personal issues. I’m not sure his work and his personal life can be separated. In fact it was studying him that made me wonder if anyone can be separated from their work. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/7 "2025-10-02T18:41:48Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > How can you usefully portray the mental processes of a supergenius mind (human or otherwise), since you aren’t one yourself? All you can do is show the results… you just can’t write it first person. I don’t know how fiction writers get around this either - it’s not easy to write a character who is smarter than you. But some authors pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/8 "2025-10-02T18:54:25Z")
Okay, reading that passage I linked to above, I think he’s equivocating a bit. Technically he’s speaking as Zarathustra, and as Zarathustra is the first immoralist. Is an Immoralist an ubermensch? A proto- ubermensch? He says he’s the first decent man, the first man to speak the truth. He is beyond morality. That sounds ubermenschy to me. I think it could go either way. (“Did Nietzsche think he was an ubermensch?” would be a great final exam question.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/9 "2025-10-04T11:22:02Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Technically he’s speaking as Zarathustra, and as Zarathustra is the first immoralist Where do you get that from? As far as I’m aware, Nietzsche considered _himself_ the first immoralist - at least that’s how he refers to _himself_ in _Ecce Homo._ He specifically calls Zarathustra “the exact reverse of an immoralist”. Zarathustra in _Also Sprach…_ is definitely not the _Übermensch_ - even at the end of his life living in the cave, he is still waiting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/10 "2025-10-05T18:18:11Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > He was the youngest philosophy professor in his country’s history. Nitpick: philology, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/11 "2025-10-05T21:14:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Where do you get that from? As far as I’m aware, Nietzsche considered _himself_ the first immoralist - at least that’s how he refers to _himself_ in _Ecce Homo._ He specifically calls Zarathustra “the exact reverse of an immoralist”. Yes, that’s correct. I think I was reading this: > The self-overcoming of morality through truthfulness, the moralist’s self-overcoming of himself into his opposite— into me—that is what the name Zarathustra means to me. It’s been _over_ 25 years since I’ve studied or read Nietzsche, so some of this may be lost on me, but I’m not sure how the moralist’s self-overcoming could be anything besides two phases of the same person. I also don’t know who Zarathustra was, historically or symbolically. One of the most frustrating things to me about philosophy is how every idea is founded on something else. Ideally I would know everyone who came before him and all of their arguments and ideas. To have a deeper grounding in where he’s coming from. But it’s turtles all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nietszche-ever-claim-to-himself-be-an-ubermensch/1023607/12 "2025-10-10T14:51:56Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I also don’t know who Zarathustra was, historically or symbolically. Zoroaster, of Zoroastrianism fame. I think he represents the dichotomy of good and evil in this context.