# Did Nurses Have a Rank in (old) US Army? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827 "2016-09-02T23:08:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/21 "2016-09-04T02:44:37Z")
shortly after I graduated nursing school (RN) I was recruited by the Army, who assured me I would go in as a Lieutenant, which amused me mostly because my son is an NCO. I would have outranked him! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/22 "2016-09-04T03:05:48Z")
> [@Cub\_Mistress](#): > > shortly after I graduated nursing school (RN) I was recruited by the Army, who assured me I would go in as a Lieutenant, which amused me mostly because my son is an NCO. I would have outranked him! You’re Mom. You will _always_ outrank him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/23 "2016-09-05T23:27:32Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …general military culture circa 1950 might be when it comes to _gender_ matters (the corps was all-female at the time; it was not until 1944 that the nurses’ ranks were made equally substantive rather than “equivalent” and unlike the doctors, nurses were _not_ drafted). So it would sound right especially when being addressed by an old-timer like Potter… IIRC there was an episode where a male registered nurse got drafted and was only allowed to be an enlisted orderly. In practice he was performing nursing duties because they were so short staffed and complained about being allowed to be an officer like that women despite having the same exact training. > [@westhou](#): > > I heard that when the Selective Service / Draft was in effect that the only women who could be drafted were Doctors and Nurses. During WWII there was talk of drafting women to serve as nurses, but Japan’s surrender made it unnecessary. The UK did have female conscription during WWII, but it was more flexible than male conscription & women didn’t necessarily serve in the military. Women have never been required to register with the Selective Service System, but IIRC there was a contingency plan for a limited draft of medical personnel that would’ve included women. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/24 "2016-09-06T00:04:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You’re Mom. You will _always_ outrank him. 😃 But then he’d have had to _salute._ > [@alphaboi867](#): > > IIRC there was an episode where a male registered nurse got drafted and was only allowed to be an enlisted orderly. In practice he was performing nursing duties because they were so short staffed and complained about being allowed to be an officer like that women despite having the same exact training. Right, the Nurse Corps went co-ed in 1955, \*after \*the Korean War. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/25 "2016-09-07T07:57:44Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > .One of the bigger, less well-known functions of Army veterinarians is to inspect the food supply of food brought in to foreign and deployed posts to ensure that it is safe for troops to eat. And apropros of nothing, last week I was watching “The Hill” (B&W military prison movie) Where “vet” was a slang term for the medical doctor … ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/26 "2016-09-07T09:03:54Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > However, the nurses in the 4077th tended to be treated _sociologically_ as a separate “special class”, which would not be entirely incompatible with the general military culture circa 1950 might be when it comes to _gender_ matters That reminds me of something that seemed strange in an episode I watched last week (from season 10, I think). The enemy got a bit too close to the camp, so all the nurses\* - and nobody else - were evacuated, leaving various male characters to do the nurses’ duties (off the top of my head, I remember Klinger, Fr Mulcahy and Igor). This seems absolutely bass-ackward, but…hey, '50s, I can imagine that sexism (protect the women-folk!) could trump common sense (staffing a hospital with the trained medical folk), so I’ve been wondering if it’s something that was actually done. - The official ones…the corpsman-acting-as-nurse mentioned above was presumably still there. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/27 "2016-09-07T13:41:49Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > PS: The K-9 corps is huge. There are guard dogs, military police dogs, dogs with the bomb squads, and search and rescue dogs, just to name a few. Veterinarians are vital to the military. Yep- a good friend’s dad had been a USAF veterinarian. His job was to look after the guard dogs on Air Force bases where nuclear weapons were stored. I suspect the point of the MASH episode where the male nurse got drafted was that he got drafted as a run-of-the-mill civilian, not specifically as a nurse, and therefore was slotted into the jobs that a trained private could do. You’d think he’d have been able to show them his credentials and get shunted over into the direct commissioning program though. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/28 "2016-09-07T13:51:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I suspect the point of the MASH episode where the male nurse got drafted was that he got drafted as a run-of-the-mill civilian, not specifically as a nurse[…]You’d think he’d have been able to show them his credentials and get shunted over into the direct commissioning program though. Except for the part that the Nursing Corps was exclusively female pre-1955. Which provided the show a clever way of turning the tables on the concept of there being jobs that were gender-excluded. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/29 "2016-09-07T14:46:28Z")
“Doctor” is both allowed and usually preferred as a way to address military doctors, as it’s seen as more prestigious than their rank. There’s no such allowance for nurses but it’s possible that Col Blake separated them out intentionally to elevate them as a class. Of course, if your order is correct (officers, NCOs, nurses) then putting them last in the list would defeat the purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/30 "2016-09-07T14:49:26Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > One of the bigger, less well-known functions of Army veterinarians is to inspect the food supply of food brought in to foreign and deployed posts to ensure that it is safe for troops to eat. I wonder if that’s a hold over from the days when much of the food arrived as live animals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/31 "2016-09-07T16:12:01Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It is almost unheard of for such an officer to run around giving orders to privates or be granted command of a base or ship. In other words, the rank is very much a “professional courtesy” thing. Outside of their sphere, yes. But a Doctor/Captain will certainly give orders to Private/Orderlies, Lt/Nurses, and so forth. And of course when a MD is in command of a unit, like on MASH, he gives all normal command orders. the 8076th Mobile Army Surgical Hospital had personnel including 10 medical officers, 12 nursing officers, and 89 enlisted soldiers of assorted medical and nonmedical specialties m and was commanded by Major Kryder E. Van Buskirk MD. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/32 "2016-09-07T16:44:25Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Note that while officer ranks for licensed professionals in the US military today are technically full and substantive officer ranks, they in fact exist in a slightly special social sphere, being commissioned [in a separate manner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_commission_officer) than most combat-oriented officers. It is almost unheard of for such an officer to run around giving orders to privates or be granted command of a base or ship. In other words, the rank is very much a “professional courtesy” thing. > > There is even a program to grant commissions to veterinarians, which could certainly be helpful if we ever go back to mounted cavalry charges. If not, there are still plenty of guard dogs to be taken care of. The commission is more than a “professional courtesy” thing. They do not receive a line officer commission but they are a limited duty officer. And yes they can be put in command of a base and the privates under their command had better follow their orders. The senior officer in command of a hospital will be a medical officer. And like any officer they are not allowed to go around giving order to just anyone in uniform. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/33 "2016-09-07T16:46:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Outside of their sphere, yes. But a Doctor/Captain will certainly give orders to Private/Orderlies, Lt/Nurses, and so forth. And of course when a MD is in command of a unit, like on MASH, he gives all normal command orders. the 8076th Mobile Army Surgical Hospital had personnel including 10 medical officers, 12 nursing officers, and 89 enlisted soldiers of assorted medical and nonmedical specialties m and was commanded by Major Kryder E. Van Buskirk MD. Still, a comparatively junior doctor (Captain, for instance) could reasonably give direction\* to a more senior nurse (Major) if she were actually providing care for the doctor’s patient. Of course, a nursing Major would probably be equivalent to a charge nurse or head nurse, so probably less hands-on. \*medical direction. And not orders, I would think; rank does mean something. And politely. The standard trope about doctors lording over the rest of the medical team would seem to run afoul of good order and conduct if it violates rank strictures and seniority. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/34 "2016-09-07T17:12:18Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > … > [Vets actually do quite a lot more.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_Corps_%28United_States_Army%29) The U.S. Army is the only service of the U.S. military that has dedicated, uniformed veterinarians and they provide both animal health services to the working dogs (guard/MP/bomb disposal) of all of the services as well as provide limited free animal health services to the personal pets of U.S. service members. One of the bigger, less well-known functions of Army veterinarians is to inspect the food supply of food brought in to foreign and deployed posts to ensure that it is safe for troops to eat. Army veterinarians are also on Civil Affairs teams that would go into friendly or enemy territory that has been secured by combat arms forces in a war zone and help assess any animal health needs of the local populace. To add to this little hijack on vets, animals are involved in medical research performed in-house, so to speak, by the Army, from lab rats to large animals in disease pathology all the way to wound care and biological and chemical warfare research. Their physiology often must be exquisitely monitored. ETA sorry , I see it’s mentioned in the wiki. NB: an enlistee (non-commissioned) in that branch wear’s a med core insignia without a big “V.” Hilarity can ensue! ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/35 "2016-09-07T17:17:53Z")
Yes, it’s corps. Blame autocorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/36 "2016-09-07T18:00:57Z")
Hey, it’s better than the other likely autocorrect of that word. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/37 "2016-09-07T18:27:36Z")
> [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > Medal of Honor Winner One does not “win” the Medal of Honor. It is awarded. That would make Wood a recipient. Sorry, but that’s a pet peeve of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/38 "2016-09-07T18:34:26Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > FWIW, in reference to the program M_A_S\*H, there is a backstory where MAJ Houlihan is said to have earned her rank, having joined the Army before she became a nurse, worked her way up through the ranks, then doing her nursing training under the auspices of the military, much in the same way the COL Potter became a doctor after previously being an enlisted man in the cavalry in WWI. That’s why MAJ H. is entrusted with being the head nurse, and gives orders to the enlisted men on the base in a way that the other nurses do not. Her father was Col. Alvin “Howitzer Al” Houlihan, who might have opened some doors for her. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/39 "2016-09-07T20:26:12Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The commission is more than a “professional courtesy” thing. They do not receive a line officer commission but they are a limited duty officer. And yes they can be put in command of a base and the privates under their command had better follow their orders. The senior officer in command of a hospital will be a medical officer. And like any officer they are not allowed to go around giving order to just anyone in uniform. Doctors and nurses are not LDOs in the US Navy. An [LDO](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_duty_officer) is a different path of commissioning. What the doctors and nurses are happen to be staff officers as opposed to Unrestricted Line Officers. All officers still have general military authority, so there are instances where a doctor who is not in the private’s chain of command can give a lawful order to that private. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827/40 "2016-09-07T20:33:13Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#): > > One does not “win” the Medal of Honor. It is awarded. That would make Wood a recipient. > > Sorry, but that’s a pet peeve of mine. I also have that pet peeve. Plus it peeves me when media types report that the president awards the Medal of Honor. Congress awards the MOH; the President presents it to the recipient. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-nurses-have-a-rank-in-old-us-army/764827.md?page=3)