### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/1 "2010-07-22T01:38:10Z")
During all the debate about the healthcare bill, there’s was much push-back because the healthcare mandate was viewed by Republicans as a tax. But Obama swore up and down that it was NOT a tax. (Since he would not be imposing any tax increases on 95% of Americans.) He argued that it was like buying car insurance. Leaving the efficacy of that argument aside and granting that Obama was right, how can he now defend the healthcare bill against attacks that the mandate is unconstitutional by claiming that the government has the power to levy—you guessed it—taxes!???
[From The NY Times:](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html?_r=1&ref=politics)
> [@](#):
>
> Administration officials say the tax argument is a linchpin of their legal case in defense of the health care overhaul and its individual mandate, now being challenged in court by more than 20 states and several private organizations.
>
> Under the legislation signed by President Obama in March, most Americans will have to maintain “minimum essential coverage” starting in 2014. Many people will be eligible for federal subsidies to help them pay premiums.
>
> In a brief defending the law, the Justice Department says the requirement for people to carry insurance or pay the penalty is “a valid exercise” of Congress’s power to impose taxes.
>
> \
>
> While Congress was working on the health care legislation, Mr. Obama refused to accept the argument that a mandate to buy insurance, enforced by financial penalties, was equivalent to a tax.
>
> “For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase,” the president said last September, in a spirited exchange with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program “This Week.”
>
> When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”
---
### Author:  [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/2 "2010-07-22T02:28:41Z")
In law you throw in everything you can and hope the court agrees with one of your arguments. This is hardly surprising.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/3 "2010-07-22T02:29:44Z")
He didn’t say it wasn’t a tax. He said it wasn’t a tax increase, per you quote.
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### Author:  [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/4 "2010-07-22T02:34:44Z")
I predict the lefty line here will be something as follows:
Oh, it’s not a tax or a tax increase in the usual sense of those words, so Obama absolutely was not lying when he said that. But it does fall into Congresses power to lay and collect taxes in the Constitution. One notion is a colloquial term, while the other is just a technical term used in the Constitution. Also, the parts of the Constitution that restrict federal power are out-dated anyway, so it’s totally OK to make whatever argument is necessary to skirt them.
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### Author:  [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/5 "2010-07-22T02:35:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> He didn’t say it wasn’t a tax. He said it wasn’t a tax increase, per you quote.
Please let us know what you think after reading the entire quote in the OP, including the last line.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/6 "2010-07-22T02:38:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> He didn’t say it wasn’t a tax. He said it wasn’t a tax increase, per you quote.
He said it was both:
> [@](#):
>
> When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/7 "2010-07-22T02:45:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> He didn’t say it wasn’t a tax. He said it wasn’t a tax increase, per you quote.
See [here.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7ak__MGyw)
Also, watch from 3:10. At 4:30 he really turns the bullshit up, and GS calls him on it.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/8 "2010-07-22T03:08:16Z")
::clap clap clap::
Well done, Perry Magellan. Under your withering cross examination, Obama has been shown to not be a completely honest politician. He joins the rank of … oh let’s say 99.9999% of other politicians. He does, in fact, stretch the truth even to a breaking point. I suppose we could dither over whether or not there is a difference between a compliance/punitive “tax” and Obama’s and the public’s understanding of the word “tax”, but I find no reason to dwell on semantic arguments. Kudos to you, magellan. Kudos.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/9 "2010-07-22T03:20:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> ::clap clap clap::
>
> Well done, Perry Magellan. Under your withering cross examination, Obama has been shown to not be a completely honest politician. He joins the rank of … oh let’s say 99.9999% of other politicians. He does, in fact, stretch the truth even to a breaking point. I suppose we could dither over whether or not there is a difference between a compliance/punitive “tax” and Obama’s and the public’s understanding of the word “tax”, but I find no reason to dwell on semantic arguments. Kudos to you, magellan. Kudos.
When you have no defense—which seems to be the case—mock.
::clap clap clap::
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/10 "2010-07-22T03:30:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> When you have no defense—which seems to be the case—mock.
>
> ::clap clap clap::
I’m not mocking, nor am I raising a “defense”.
OK, I’m mocking a little. I find it amusing that some of those on the right perpetuate this idea that liberals believe that Obama is some kind of Messiah; a truthsayer, who would never ever shade the truth, and then the right spends their time trying to knock down their own strawmen. It makes me chuckle.
Most reasonable people I know, including myself, know that Obama is a politician. We know that he’s willing to use the word “tax” differently in different situations and to different groups. It’s just that we’re not all agog in horror when that kind of reality actual happens.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/11 "2010-07-22T03:39:11Z")
> [@Hamlet](#):
>
> I’m not mocking, nor am I raising a “defense”.
> OK, I’m mocking a little. I find it amusing that some of those on the right perpetuate this idea that liberals believe that Obama is some kind of Messiah; a truthsayer, who would never ever shade the truth, and then the right spends their time trying to knock down their own strawmen. It makes me chuckle.
>
> Most reasonable people I know, including myself, know that Obama is a politician. We know that he’s willing to use the word “tax” differently in different situations and to different groups. It’s just that we’re not all agog in horror when that kind of reality actual happens.
Bu that’s not what happened here. He was taken to task (and not just by GS) because the only way the mandate and penalty could be justified in constitutional context was as a tax. But he swore up and down that it was not. Why? Because he had made such a big deal of not increasing the tax burden, “not one dime” on 95% of Americans. The media let him slide on this, and they shouldn’t have. And wouldn’t have it he were a Republican. He shouldn’t be able to raise the “it’s a tax defense” now. and if he insists, fine, time for a revote on the healthcare bill. Not that this will happen, of course.
I was genuinely curious if there was some third possibility. But I don’t see it. I didn’t vote for Obama, but I was optimistic when he got elected. If he brought the good stuff I was hearing and not the bad stuff, I would have been thrilled. But it turns out that he’s possibly the most full of shit politician I can think of. He’s a flat out liar.
---
### Author:  [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/12 "2010-07-22T03:47:10Z")
Do you understand that a legal brief usually contains every argument you can think of in hopes that a judge will find one persuasive?
\*\*
Rand Rover\*\* - you are a lawyer, right? Would you ever leave out an argument in a brief that could potentially win a case when representing a client?
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/13 "2010-07-22T03:50:53Z")
A mandate to but health insurance does not effect everybody. Most are covered, poorly, by work. Many have medicare. You would have to horribly slanted to think it is a tax, especially since if you can not afford it, you will get assistance. Here we go with the righties bloviating again.
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### Author:  [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/14 "2010-07-22T03:51:59Z")
Brilliant!
Ensure that the proposed legislation is legal through the perfectly Constitutional power of Congress to levy taxes, but downplay that aspect during the debate period (where, let’s face it, there’s a lot of rhetoric flying from both sides of the issue to frame the item at hand).
I love when Democrats show a little political savvy.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/15 "2010-07-22T03:52:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Bu that’s not what happened here. He was taken to task (and not just by GS) because the only way the mandate and penalty could be justified in constitutional context was as a tax. But he swore up and down that it was not. Why? Because he had made such a big deal of not increasing the tax burden, “not one dime” on 95% of Americans. The media let him slide on this, and they shouldn’t have. And wouldn’t have it he were a Republican. He shouldn’t be able to raise the “it’s a tax defense” now. and if he insists, fine, time for a revote on the healthcare bill. Not that this will happen, of course.
The way I see it, it’s a conditional tax. If you don’t get health insurance, you’ll be taxed. There is a definite way to avoid the tax, and, although it raises money for the government, it seems to me the primary purpose is as a motive to get compliance. In that sense, it’s not a “tax” increase that will effect everyone who has income, or property.
But, again, it’s a semantic argument. Whether a punitive tax (which may actually be nigh but unenforceable) is a “tax” as the great majority of people (and Obama) use it, is up for debate. But that “debate” just gets a big meh from me, mostly because that’s exactly what politicans do, they sell their ideas and plans to the public.
> [@magellan](#):
>
> I was genuinely curious if there was some third possibility. But I don’t see it. I didn’t vote for Obama, but I was optimistic when he got elected. If he brought the good stuff I was hearing and not the bad stuff, I would have been thrilled. But it turns out that he’s possibly the most full of shit politician I can think of. He’s a flat out liar.
Sorry to break it to you, but he’s a politican. A politician who will actually try to spin things to get public approval. I know, I know, shocking isn’t it. And while he has been a disappoint for me too, I’m finding it hard to get all hot and bothered by his using the word “tax” in different ways to different people in different situations. After an unnecessary, costly war, the breaking the law to wiretap citizens without a warrant, and authorizing the use of torture, I find my “outrage-o-meter” for the President to have been set a bit higher.
---
### Author:  [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/16 "2010-07-22T03:53:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> The media let him slide on this, and they shouldn’t have. And wouldn’t have it he were a Republican.
Cite?
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/17 "2010-07-22T04:46:39Z")
> [@kingbighair](#):
>
> Do you understand that a legal brief usually contains every argument you can think of in hopes that a judge will find one persuasive?
> \*\*
> Rand Rover\*\* - you are a lawyer, right? Would you ever leave out an argument in a brief that could potentially win a case when representing a client?
It’s my understanding that this is THE argument. Is that wrong?
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/18 "2010-07-22T04:49:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> A mandate to but health insurance does not effect everybody. Most are covered, poorly, by work. Many have medicare. You would have to horribly slanted to think it is a tax, especially since if you can not afford it, you will get assistance. Here we go with the righties bloviating again.
(This is for Hamlet, too.)
Either it is a tax or the government is forcing you to buy a product. The latter is without precedent and is probably illegal (which the WH seemingly agrees with, as they are not trying to justify it on those grounds). The former, if true, makes Obama a bold face liar.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/19 "2010-07-22T04:51:57Z")
> [@waterj2](#):
>
> Cite?
:rolleyes: True or not true, there is not a cite either way. Do you not realize that?
---
### Author:  [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-lie-then-or-now-or-is-there-another-explanation/547544/20 "2010-07-22T05:12:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> It’s my understanding that this is THE argument. Is that wrong?
I was under the impression that they are using the tax argument in case the Court thinks they are going to far with enforcing the law under the Commerce Clause. The answer is not really clear from the article, and would be found pretty quickly if anyone finds a link to the brief. This quote from the article seems to suggest the tax argument is not their only one,
> [@](#):
>
> Dan Pfeiffer, the White House communications director, described the tax power as an alternative source of authority.
This just seems like smart lawyering to me, but I could be wrong.
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