# Did Obama tell Israel to Raise a UN Flag at the Wailing Wall? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542 "2009-06-22T01:28:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/61 "2009-06-23T18:52:24Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > What do they say to you when you ask them? You do ask them, don’t you? And what is their response when you remind them of the Jews’ ancient claim to Jerusalem? The fact is, that when Jordan controlled Jerusalem they banned Jews from coming into the city and tore up Jewish gravestones and used them to pave military latrines, among other things. Asking an Israeli to give Jerusalem to the Palestinians is simply a non-starter. It won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/62 "2009-06-23T18:53:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think you will be able to convince the rest of the world of the fiction that the Israelis are natives to the M.E. Fiction? By what defensible argument are they not? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/63 "2009-06-23T19:00:55Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > It’s religion and nationalism both. I’d not consider Israel a fundamentally secular state - I’d pick Turkey as more secular (but nonetheless religious) state. Israel was, after all, founded as a result of a religio-nationalistic movement to establish a state for Jews in their biblical homeland. Although it is formally secular and its laws codify freedom of religion, in practice Israel was also founded on religious fundamentals. That’s why, for example, imports of non-kosher foods were banned (until quite recently I believe), why entertainment and public transportation services shut down every Sabbath, and why the chief rabbinate was given judicial authority over marital issues. This is factually wrong. The reality is more complex. Judaism is an ethnic identity as well as a religion, and early Zionists tended towards athiestic socialism, not religion. The notion of a “homeland” is not a religious one, but a nationalistic one - it arises from history and not faith. Israel was not “founded on religious fundamentals” but on ethno-nationalist ones. The reason why the religious minority exercises disproportionate power over Israeli social laws has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that “… Israel was also founded on religious fundamentals”, but rather because under Israel’s version of democracy, a party voting en block has disproportionate power. In fact, there is considerable conflict between the religious minority and the non-religious majority over this, in particular because the ultra-religious don’t serve in the armed forces. > [@](#): > > A more contemporary example is needed, maybe even one that does not predate global forums. France is not the League of Nations or the United Nations. France had no voice to claim or deny American independence on an international basis, it could only provide material and diplomatic assistance and offer to recognize independence as one sovereign state speaking to hundreds of other states. Both the League of Nations and the United Nations (and of course their members) devoted years of effort to set up the country that would eventually become Israel. > > Incorrect and rather jaded too I might add. Is this “sole purpose” taught in schools or is this your own interpretation? Resolution 181 is right there in the Israeli declaration of independence as one of the items that recognizes the right of the Jewish people to set up a state. Hardly worthless for that reason alone! > > Although the plan was never implemented, the efforts at the LoN and UN to find some sort of solution to the problem was a political movement in itself without which Zionism would probably have floundered. It seems exceedingly strange to belittle as you do the years of international work and assistance to the Jewish people that went into making Israel possible. > > The point is that Jews did not magically appear in Palestine and heroically carve out a country for themselves using only their wit and brawn and faith. They were aided, assisted, and enabled in their endeavour by the international community. You are much exaggerating the actual effect and effectiveness of UN efforts. They were mostly of symbolic import only. Of far greater actual significance was the fact that many soon to be Israelis volunteered to fight on the allied side in WW2, thus gaining valuable battle experience and contacts. Certainly many individuals helped the nacient Israelis, but the “international community” - mainly represented by the British, who actually controlled the territory under the Mandatory government - did far more to hinder than to help; for example, by blocading immigrants and interning them _after_ the War, by partiality towards the Arabs in general and towards the Jordanians in particular (who were trained and equipped by the British - and led by a British General in the '48 conflict: John Glubb Pasha). The UN partition plan was certainly welcomed by the Israelis, but it came with no guarantees of international assistance, and was the signal for war with the armies of 5 Arab nations. “International assistance” at the state level for Israel was notably lacking in that conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/64 "2009-06-23T19:06:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You seem to be arguing that the Israelis didn’t do a good enough job of kicking the asses of the arabs in the area. > > Unfortunately for them, it’s now too late to rectify that mistake - unlike when North America and Australia were colonized/conquered, there are now all these pesky superpowers that loom over everyone and smack the hands of anybody who tries to commit a proper genocide. (Pesky superpowers.) So even if Israel wanted to ‘correct’ their problem the macho-bullshit way, which I am not saying they intend to do - either way, the opportunity for that has passed. Not at all. I merely point out that facts on the ground cannot be ignored: Israelis have now been living in Israel for three generations or more. What more is required to be a “native” ? Calls for genocide are not required. Moreover, something like half of Israelis are in point of fact “native” to the ME: read up on the Shephardic Jews. Some lived in Israel itself (from time immemorial): more lived in the other nations of the ME - and were expelled. What would you call these people if not “natives”? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/65 "2009-06-23T19:07:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Are Americans and Canadians natives to the New World? > > What about Australians? are they natives to Australia? First off, this isn’t along the lines of what (I believe) Alessan was claiming. His claim to Israeli being natives to the land is based on their ancestors getting booted off of it 2000 years ago. Claiming that Israelis are natives based on that is the fiction I was rejecting. To more broadly address your point, there isn’t any bright line rules to who is considered a native. I’m certain that there are Native Americans (i.e. Indians) that consider themselves native to America and the European descendants to be foreign to the land. Are they right? Well, what can I saw except that as someone who is the 2nd generation born in America I feel pretty native to this country. The trick is to get everyone else to agree to you. Our forefathers accomplished this by claiming justification for taking the land (We bought it, it was empty, they aren’t Christians etc.), refusing to acknowledge any legitimate claim to the land they took, and essentially wiping out the populations they displaced. The Israeli’s have performed the first two roles admirably, but unfortunately for them the population they displaced still exists and that will be a constant reminder of how Israel was formed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/66 "2009-06-23T19:14:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > First off, this isn’t along the lines of what (I believe) Alessan was claiming. His claim to Israeli being natives to the land is based on their ancestors getting booted off of it 2000 years ago. Claiming that Israelis are natives based on that is the fiction I was rejecting. > > To more broadly address your point, there isn’t any bright line rules to who is considered a native. I’m certain that there are Native Americans (i.e. Indians) that consider themselves native to America and the European descendants to be foreign to the land. Are they right? Well, what can I saw except that as someone who is the 2nd generation born in America I feel pretty native to this country. The trick is to get everyone else to agree to you. > > Our forefathers accomplished this by claiming justification for taking the land (We bought it, it was empty, they aren’t Christians etc.), refusing to acknowledge any legitimate claim to the land they took, and essentially wiping out the populations they displaced. The Israeli’s have performed the first two roles admirably, but unfortunately for them the population they displaced still exists and that will be a constant reminder of how Israel was formed. First, many Jewish Israelis have been in Israel longer than two generations - even the ones of Ashkenazic descent; those started arriving in the early 1900s. What are they, if not “natives”? They don’t even speak the languages of the countries their ancestors came from - Polish or Russian. Second, many Israeli Jews do in fact have ancestors who lived in the ME since time immemorial - the Shephardic Jews, something like half the population. What are they supposed to be, if not “natives”? Is their claim somehow fictional? Third, the aboriginal population of Canada at least is very much alive and makes regular land claims. Does that mean I’m not really a Canadian? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/67 "2009-06-23T19:17:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In very real terms, quite a large percentage of Israelis are indeed native to the Middle East by lineage. What is this percentage? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/68 "2009-06-23T19:18:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > First off, this isn’t along the lines of what (I believe) Alessan was claiming. His claim to Israeli being natives to the land is based on their ancestors getting booted off of it 2000 years ago. Claiming that Israelis are natives based on that is the fiction I was rejecting. > > To more broadly address your point, there isn’t any bright line rules to who is considered a native. I’m certain that there are Native Americans (i.e. Indians) that consider themselves native to America and the European descendants to be foreign to the land. Are they right? Well, what can I saw except that as someone who is the 2nd generation born in America I feel pretty native to this country. The trick is to get everyone else to agree to you. > > Our forefathers accomplished this by claiming justification for taking the land (We bought it, it was empty, they aren’t Christians etc.), refusing to acknowledge any legitimate claim to the land they took, and essentially wiping out the populations they displaced. The Israeli’s have performed the first two roles admirably, but unfortunately for them the population they displaced still exists and that will be a constant reminder of how Israel was formed. I love the fact that you seem to be justifying genocide. It solves plenty of problems, and there’s no downside! (Except for the victims, obviously). Anyway, you believe wrong - we Israelis are native to the Middle East because most of us were born here. Whether or not other people agree with that is not at all relevant. I was born here; that makes me a native. Unless, of course, you know some other definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/69 "2009-06-23T19:21:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > First, many Jewish Israelis have been in Israel longer than two generations - even the ones of Ashkenazic descent; those started arriving in the early 1900s. What are they, if not “natives”? They don’t even speak the languages of the countries their ancestors came from - Polish or Russian. I never said that these people aren’t natives. > [@Malthus](#): > > Second, many Israeli Jews do in fact have ancestors who lived in the ME since time immemorial - the Shephardic Jews, something like half the population. What are they supposed to be, if not “natives”? Is their claim somehow fictional? I don’t think that their claim is fictional. I just think that this constitutes a very small percentage of Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/70 "2009-06-23T19:23:34Z")
Wonderful. It’s the 21st Century and certain people still believe that a person’s rights derive from his parents’ ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/71 "2009-06-23T19:24:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What is this percentage? Depends on how you define “native” According to this: > **[Demographics of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel)** > > The demographics of Israel, monitored by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, encompass various attributes that define the nation's populace. Since its establishment in 1948, Israel has witnessed significant changes in its demographics. Formed as a homeland for the Jewish people, Israel has attracted Jewish immigrants from Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas. > The Israel Central Bureau of Statistics defines the population of Israel as including Jews living in all of the West Bank and ... Jews = 76% of the population, of whom 68% are native-born (and so “native” by one definition). However, assuming your definition is “family has always lived in the ME”, you might wish to count the Shephardim/Mizraim - almost exactly half the population of Jews, whose ancestors have essentially always lived in the ME. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/72 "2009-06-23T19:27:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I never said that these people aren’t natives. > > I don’t think that their claim is fictional. I just think that this constitutes a very small percentage of Israelis. If by “very small percentage” you mean “about half”. Myself, I’m inclined to go for the first definition of “native” - being someone born in the country. But even going by your apparent definition, something like half of Israeli Jews are “native to the ME”. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/73 "2009-06-23T19:29:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I love the fact that you seem to be justifying genocide. I love how you immediately go to genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/74 "2009-06-23T19:33:17Z")
Hey, you brought it up first. > [@treis](#): > > Our forefathers accomplished this by claiming justification for taking the land (We bought it, it was empty, they aren’t Christians etc.), refusing to acknowledge any legitimate claim to the land they took, and **essentially wiping out the populations they displaced**. The Israeli’s have performed the first two roles admirably, but \*\*unfortunately for them the population they displaced still exists \*\*and that will be a constant reminder of how Israel was formed. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/75 "2009-06-23T19:45:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wonderful. It’s the 21st Century and certain people still believe that a person’s rights derive from his parents’ ancestry. How do you reconcile this statement with these ones? > [@Alessan](#): > > It was occupied for a brief period of 2000 years. That situation was rectified in 1967. > [@Alessan](#): > > Unlike the rest of the West Bank, Israel annexed all of Jerusalem. It’s our capital, it has always been our capital - even when occupied by others - and we’re not going to give it up. Hell, I don’t even like the place, and I feel this way. > [@Alessan](#): > > What I don’t understand, however, is how people like bengangmo can be so ignorant of of the Jewish connection to the city. Have they no understanding or awareness of history? Are they ignorant of the Temple, the Kingdom of Judah, and the constant Jewish presence in the city from the Bronze Ager until the Jordanian Army exiled it in 1948? > [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe, 2,000 years from now, their turn will come round. We waited that long; they can too. Certainly seems to me like you are trying to use your ancestors to justify your current rights. > [@Alessan](#): > > ``` > Hey, you brought it up first. > > ``` I wrote that but there is no way that can possibly construed as justifying genocide. I think it’s pretty clear that I am against colonialism. It should be just as obvious that I am against committing genocide against the native population in order to solidify a colonial claim. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/76 "2009-06-23T19:51:33Z")
Ahhh, Israel = Colonialism. That meme had to bubble and writhe up to the surface sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/77 "2009-06-23T19:52:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > How do you reconcile this statement with these ones? Context. None of those quotes refer to our \*right \*to Jerusalem; only why we consider it important to us. I posted them in response to posters who claimed that Jerusalem was, to us, just another occupied territory. Like most Israel threads, this one has evolved far from its OP and has turned into something rather generic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/78 "2009-06-23T19:54:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ahhh, Israel = Colonialism. > That meme had to bubble and writhe up to the surface sooner or later. I thought it would be best to place it on the table as quickly as possible. Lets you know where people stand. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/79 "2009-06-23T19:57:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I love the fact that you seem to be justifying genocide. It solves plenty of problems, and there’s no downside! (Except for the victims, obviously). > > Anyway, you believe wrong - we Israelis are native to the Middle East because most of us were born here. Whether or not other people agree with that is not at all relevant. > > I was born here; that makes me a native. Unless, of course, you know some other definition of the word. Well, you wrote a 3-paragraph post without using “eh?” – isn’t that evidence of non-Canadianness? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542/80 "2009-06-23T20:01:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wonderful. It’s the 21st Century and certain people still believe that a person’s rights derive from his parents’ ancestry. What do you mean by “certain people”? The immense majority of the world’s population believes that. Why do Americans feel they have a right to prohibit Mexicans from coming into the country? A person’s rights derive from their ancestry in every country in the world, including America and Israel, much more so in Israel. It is wrong but it is a wrong few people have any interest in rectifying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-obama-tell-israel-to-raise-a-un-flag-at-the-wailing-wall/500542.md?page=5)