Did Paul hijack Christianity?

Great Debates
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Paul was raising up spiritual children as a mother, note the references to Paul being in the pains of child birth, Giving the children milk vs. solid food, so it was a different role then Jesus, who is the masculine figure.

In many ways Paul seemed to be preparing the young children for later work of the Lord, talking to those with very little understanding. If you look later at Peter and especially John you see a more of a shift to Love. The placing of the NT books show a transition that a person will go through, ending with great revelation.

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There is reason to think so. Whether it is accurate or not, who can say? It is possible that specifically Gnostic sects kept developing off of Christianity for no particular reason; it’s possible that the various Gnostic gospels found at Nag Hammadi weren’t written until the 2nd century; and it’s possible that Simon Magus and Dositheos were fictional characters or that they were Gnostic sects whose later followers decided to rewrite them as having known John the Baptist.

The problem is that no document can be specifically dated earlier than Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews. The Bible itself contains sections that were likely written during the first century but could just have happened to have not mentioned the destruction of Jerusalem, or whatever else, and were actually written during the 2nd. There’s no way to know for certain that anything in the Bible has anything to do with the beliefs of the earliest Christian church, beyond that it won through to became the mainstream.

But there definitely were Gnostics within the Christian church. Epiphanes was born at the tail end of the 1st century to Carpocrates. So by at least around 100 CE, Carpocrates was teaching about Jesus and Gnosticism. Between 120 and 140 CE, Valentinus was teaching about Jesus and Gnosticism. Basilides was teaching Gnostic ideas as a Christian between 117 and 138. Cerinthus, active around 100 CE, was also an Early Christian and Gnostic. Cerdo was teaching about Jesus and Gnosis before at least 138 CE. The Ophites are existed to have existed around 100 CE, and taught about Gnosis and Jesus. We have at least six groups independently working to teach Gnosticism as part of Christianity within the first half of the 2nd century. So while it may well be that Gnostic groups kept developing off of Christianity for no particular reason, that seems like a heck of an assumption.

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So, the real question becomes: Why isn’t any surviving form of Christianity Gnostic? Why, and when, and how, was Gnosticism replaced with what we now think of as Christian doctrine? Was it Paul who did it? Did he butt heads with Peter and the 12 Disciples over the point? Did he, perhaps, convert them to his POV?

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The real struggle I have with this issue is that we assume we have the full story on history. The winner’s write the history books, and in this case the “winner” was Rome’s version of Christianity.

At the time, theocratic rule was common place and was just “the way it was” so to speak. Looking on a macro-scale, governments always turn corrupt and collapse. It does not seem unquestionable that this could happen with the Roman-Christian government (that later evolved into the Roman Catholic Church - 'nuff said). Also, it would explain a lot of unanswered questions imo.

Also, I was not referring to secret teachings. It was COMMON PRACTICE that church members did not have access to scripture (and often, many could not have read it even if they did). This happened around 1000 I believe, so it was not the foundation, so I probably shouldn’t have even brought it up. Still, before this, it was likely there were even less educated who could read the works.

Rome continues to actively lock away non-canonical writings that they feel might “harm the church.”

If the Roman Catholic church was descended from Peter and Paul primarily (according to the church - with Peter being the first Pope). Yet Nero ordered Peter killed in around 40 CE, and no one really knows why. Later, it was said peter was crucified upside down as a “martyr,” but this didn’t really show up until the end of the 2nd century. LINK

Also, it is worth noting that the Ebionites believe Paul and Christianity was a “mystery religion of Babylon” that had nothing to do with the teachings of Yahshua. These sects were systematically wiped out as heretics by the Romans under Constantine around the turn of the century. LINK

This still doesn’t even address the Dead Sea Scrolls, which create a much different view of the origins of Christianity.

I understand some of the things I’m saying aren’t popular or “mainstream,” but to ignore some of this evidence along with the fact that human constructions nearly always fail to corruption and winners write the history books, how can it be said it’s “impossible?”

So again, It’s not like Paul simply hijacked it. In fact, Paul may have had the best intentions and been a wonderful man. I’m saying Paul was used by the Roman government (knowingly or unknowingly) to utilize the spiritual teachings of this man Yahshua to create a new religion (which he himself never claimed to have started - he came to “usher in the Kingdom of God,” which he taught was “within (us).”

Not to mention that (as usual) so much was done by the supposed “followers” of his teachings that was completely opposed to it. Jesus also taught that you will know evil and good by it’s fruits. What kind of fruit is the slaughter of those we were taught to love?

EDIT: Just read the last post. Paul DID have issues with the disciples. First, he asked for Nazirite law instead of Judaic law for hte gentiles. Then, later, that was absolved. In nothing more than historical legend, it is rumored that he had to be rescued by Roman Centurions to be taken back to Rome the Israeli followers of the disciples were so angry.

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My recollection is weak, but I think most of the Gnostic sects (who weren’t purged in the West) were overrun and scattered by Islam when it spread widely. And didn’t Marco Polo come across Gnostics in central Asia?

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Paul is portrayed as bringing bags of money to Jerusalem to support the church there. While their church was faltering, his was raking in the dough. Probably he had more and wealthier followers.

While it’s fairly plausible that Celsus was relying on any other rumor that he heard in his attack on Christianity, and so probably was wrong on many points, he at least describes Jesus and his crew like: “Why instead do you, the son of God, wander about in so mean a condition, hiding yourself through fear, and leading a miserable life up and down? Jesus having gathered around him ten or eleven persons of notorious character, the very wickedest of tax-gatherers and sailors, fled in company with them from place to place, and obtained his living in a shameful and importunate manner. In company with your disciples you go and hide yourself in different places!”

That description might not be accurate at all, but I think that even still there’s decently good evidence that Paul, compared to Jesus, was an amazing salesman and orator. He was probably better educated, and as a lawyer was probably quite good at debate. When Paul and Peter were hauled in to Rome to be tried for a crime with a penalty of death, I can certainly see Peter going quiet and following Paul’s lead. With most of Jesus’ personal followers possibly not being able to convert many others within Jerusalem–after all if Jesus was the best salesman of all of them, and he wasn’t so hot himself–and being killed by courts or by mobs, and Jerusalem itself getting destroyed in 70 CE, I can certainly imagine that it’s very easy for Jesus’ teachings to die off. Paul’s church was then free to write anything they wanted about these guys and what they believed. Some of them might have latched on to Paul and his beliefs, some of them might simply have been rewritten as having believed it. Due to their dependency on him for money, they might simply have just kept quiet in public and continued to practice their own teachings privately. There’s really no knowing.

Gnostic teachings popping up all over starting in the 2nd century might be because the destruction of Jerusalem had forced the remaining followers of Jesus to scatter and join the Gentile (Paulian) church. But, having known Jesus personally, they were of course asked for the direct words and teachings of Jesus himself, which then went on to influence Carpocrates, Basilides, etc.

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Marco Polo found Nestorians. They’re not Gnostics; their heresy, from a Catholic POV, is the disunion of the human and divine natures of Christ.

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Addendum:

But, these would be invasions into the church. The main body and leadership of the church, founded by Paul, would recognize these as foreign doctrine. As the official center of the church, they had a lot of power to denounce these teachings as lies and heresy and cast the followers out of the church. When Christianity became the official religion of Rome, they then had the power to hunt down the followers of Gnosticism and massacre them, burning all of their teachings–which is what happened.

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Your post is full of incorrect and unsupported facts and assertations, but let me just start with this one. If Paul was being used so successfully by the Roman government, why did they keep him in prison so long and eventually chop his head off? Why did the Roman government persecute Christians if they were all following Paul, who was a tool of the Romans?

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A lot of what you’re saying isn’t supported by what we know. The Ebionites weren’t wiped out by Constantine. They were wiped out by Hadrian at the end of the Third Jewish War. Ebionite communities suffered, not because they were Christian heretics, but because they were considered Jewish, and Hadrian, after the Third Jewish War, made it his goal to wipe out Judaism.

The Dead Sea Scrolls don’t even talk about Christianity at all. They were written by the Essenes of Qumran, a Jewish communal monastic sect.

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Oops, you’re right. I couldn’t remember the name. Although I’m not entirely clear about the technical distinctions between them (they both have dualistic beliefs?), Nestorians are not generally considered Gnostics.

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First of all, the one assertion you picked is my opinion which I admitted is based on some assumptions that I clearly spelled out.

As far as Paul’s imprisonment, with my ASSUMPTIONS in place, it’s possible he had served his purpose and was “dealt with” which happens in governments more than people like to acknowledge. He was taken into custody for protection, and the only record of his arrest is his writings of the arrest and imprisonment. Is it possible he could have lied? I don’t have an answer, but I do find it odd that so little historical accounts were ever recorded of such a major influences arrest and death. His death is also the stuff of legends, only being accounted by the Roman Catholic Church tradition and amazingly, no other recorded account to be found (or perhaps none we are allowed to read by the church of rome). We have no idea really, and to assume that single sources on history are automatically correct because those are the ones that survived is faulty logic imo. LINK

They only persecuted Christians until Constantine, and as the philosophy often goes, if you can’t beat em, join em (and usurp authority from the inside out…ok I added that last part).

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Why don’t you check out this link on ebionites. Make sure you note that they were not accepted by either Jews nor Christians. I didn’t mean to imply Rome destroyed every last blessed group of them, but Rome did actively destroy the “gnostic sects” (i.e. anyone claiming to know the teachings of Jesus that didnt’ agree with the Roman Church). You are right about Hadrian “finishing the job” so to speak after the third Jewish revolt. The Ebionites did constantly decry Constantine and he did regularly meet opposition with violence. To what degree I cannot say.

Apologies, misspoke on the dead sea scrolls. What I meant to say was that while we popularly view the Roman church as the true origin of the practice of Jesus’ teachings, it clearly wasn’t. You are correct that the Essenes weren’t Christian. These writings and teachings existed immediately prior to the advent of Christianity, and historians discuss the influence these writings had on both religions.

There is also an series of Essene Gospels, discussing a reported encounter with Jesus and the teachings he shared. It was found hidden in the secret vaults of the Vatican in the 1920’s I think. Check me on that if you’d like.

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Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but here is a catholic encyclopedia entryon ebionites - apparently, Rome viewed 2 sects of ebionites - the more Jewish variety and the gnostic variety. I honestly had never been aware of the distinction they made until now. All the research I had ever done on ebionites suggested one sect that was destroyed over time.

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Follow the Sandalites!

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The word, “hijack” implies that previous to Paul Christianity existed in a singular, homogenous form. While we don’t have enough hard, historical data to be able to determine exactly what Jesus taught or believed about himself, or how his disciples and the rest of his immediate followers vewed him, we do know that there were several different movements and sects of Christianity active in the first two centuries. Pauline Christinity won out and became the version that was eventually established as “orthodox,” but it wasn’t really any more a “hijack” than any of the other ones. Paul does have the benefit of being early and close to the original movement, but even he says he had differences with the Jerusalem movement, though it’s not clear what all of them were.

Paul seems to have had a lot to do with establishing orthodox Christianity’s soteriology and Christology, and he changed it from a closed Jewish movement to a universal one. How much he differed from the original movement in its view of Jesus (or from Jesus’ view of himself) is unknown.

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The Third Jewish War/Bar Kokhba’s revolt ended in 136. That was when Hadrian “finished the job”. Constantine wasn’t born until 272, 140 years later. The primary controversy in Christianity at Constantine’s time was the Arian one, and Constantine suppressed the Arians, not the Ebionites.

I’d very much like to know more about that. Are you talking about Szekeley’s “Essene Gospel of Peace”, which he claimed to find in the Vatican library and the library of Monte Cassino in 1923? The one where Jesus tells everyone to be vegetarians and take colonics? You know that’s a forgery and that Szekeley was a fraud, right?

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Guess my history wires were crossed then. Thanks for that.

Wasn’t aware it was a forgery. Cite?

I don’t take it as the whole truth by any means, but it would seem there may be some connection to some assemblance of truth, corrupted. But yes that’s what I was referring to.

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Oh, c’mon! Next you’ll be telling us Jesus never lived in India!

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Only because he lived in Japan.