# Did people ever figure out what the red rain in Kerala was **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 14, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367 "2006-03-14T21:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/1 "2006-03-14T21:59:25Z")
> **[The red rain phenomenon of Kerala and its possible extraterrestrial origin](https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022)** > > A red rain phenomenon occurred in Kerala, India starting from 25th July 2001, > in which the rainwater appeared coloured in various localized places that are > spread over a few hundred kilometers in Kerala. Maximum cases were reported > during the first... In 2001 alot of red celllike structures were mixed in the rain in Kerala, India. The orbs had no DNA but they have some cell like structures. Speculation is that they could be single celled organic life from some other solar system that was in a comet that hit earth. Has anyone found out what they are yet? I have heard explanations like they were the effect of a comet hitting a bunch of bats in the atmosphere but if that were true the cells would have DNA and they do not. I have heard some say they are sand but that wasn’t accepted by that article because the pattern of rainfall would’ve been different. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/2 "2006-03-14T23:29:09Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > [http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022](http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022) > In 2001 alot of red celllike structures were mixed in the rain in Kerala, India. The orbs had no DNA but they have some cell like structures. **Speculation** is that they could be single celled organic **life** from some other solar system that was in a comet that hit earth. Has anyone found out what they are yet? I have heard explanations like they were the effect of a comet hitting a bunch of bats in the atmosphere but if that were true the cells would have DNA and they do not. I have heard some say they are sand but that wasn’t accepted by that article because the pattern of rainfall would’ve been different. As per usual, anything to write ’ ‘good’ copy and speculate as to where it came from, what it means, etc. More likely falls in the category of “Interesting but of doubtful value.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/3 "2006-03-15T00:12:42Z")
But has anyone found out what it is yet? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/4 "2006-03-15T00:36:23Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > [http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022](http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022) There’s a bit more on the red stuff, and the paper, here: [Skepticism greets claim of possible alien microbes](http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/060104_specksfrm1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![bonitahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7993a0/32.png) [@bonitahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonitahi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/5 "2006-03-15T02:55:21Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > But has anyone found out what it is yet? Guess not. Like to know too. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/6 "2006-03-15T10:39:06Z")
> [@bonitahi](#): > > Guess not. Like to know too. A New Scientist article I read had the lead researcher coming around to the idea that it is organic material from a small exploding asteroid/comet type thingie. A sceptic claimed that a more ‘sensible’ explanation is that a meteor exploded in a giant flock of bats spreading their blood everywhere. Yea - right. That’s clearly the most likely explanation. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/7 "2006-03-15T13:49:36Z")
Probability-wise, it sure seems more likely to me that that cell-like structures found in the atmosphere/surface of a planet teeming with life came from that planet, and not elsewhere. Even the bat explanation is more likely; it’s a documented fact there are bats here. I’d love this to be alien life, but let’s be realistic here. We _know_ structures like that are made on the planet this stuff was found. Why do we need to bring in an explanation that involves alien life? But, I _really_ want to be wrong on this. Please, prove me wrong, I’ll cream my jeans if this really turns out to be alien life forms. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/8 "2006-03-15T14:12:57Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Probability-wise, it sure seems more likely to me that that cell-like structures found in the atmosphere/surface of a planet teeming with life came from that planet, and not elsewhere. Even the bat explanation is more likely; it’s a documented fact there are bats here. > > I’d love this to be alien life, but let’s be realistic here. We _know_ structures like that are made on the planet this stuff was found. Why do we need to bring in an explanation that involves alien life? > > But, I _really_ want to be wrong on this. Please, prove me wrong, I’ll cream my jeans if this really turns out to be alien life forms. Bats - please. there was an estimated 50,000 tonnes of this material. Tell me - how many bats is that and how big an explosion would it take to vapourise them? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/9 "2006-03-15T14:14:04Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Probability-wise, it sure seems more likely to me that that cell-like structures found in the atmosphere/surface of a planet teeming with life came from that planet, and not elsewhere. Even the bat explanation is more likely; it’s a documented fact there are bats here. > > I’d love this to be alien life, but let’s be realistic here. We _know_ structures like that are made on the planet this stuff was found. Why do we need to bring in an explanation that involves alien life? > > But, I _really_ want to be wrong on this. Please, prove me wrong, I’ll cream my jeans if this really turns out to be alien life forms. And to add - we don’t know what the material is - it’s unidentified. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/10 "2006-03-15T14:15:40Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Bats - please. there was an estimated 50,000 tonnes of this material. Tell me - how many bats is that and how big an explosion would it take to vapourise them? kg not tonnes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/11 "2006-03-15T14:24:10Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Bats - please. there was an estimated 50,000 tonnes of this material. Tell me - how many bats is that and how big an explosion would it take to vapourise them? You think because there was a lot of material, that makes it more likely that it comes from outer space? When we have billions of tons of life-like material made right here on Earth? The more the material, the _more likely_ it comes from Earth. Yeah, bats specifically sounds a bit unlikely, but not as unlikely as it not coming from the planet it was found on, when that planet is a known source of vast amounts life. ---
**Author:** ![sunfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sunfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunfish)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/12 "2006-03-15T14:39:31Z")
but I think the authors of that paper are wrong. The phenomenon of “red rain” has been documented in a number of places around the world, and in fact there was a previous paper (published in 2004) on the Kerala event. In those cases, iron-rich windblown dust was fingered as the coloring agent. When reading a paper that makes as sensational a claim as this one, it’s good to ask yourself a few questions:[ul] [li] Do the authors include people with the appropriate expertise to have investigated and described the phenomenon?[/li][li] Do the authors provide a sound, testable hypothesis in their explanation of the phenomenon? Do they give an adequate explanation as to why theirs is a special case, compared to other known occurrences of a similar phenomenon?[/li][li] What weight does the choice of publication venue lend to the conclusions put forth by the authors?[/ul][/li] In the case of this paper, we have the following:[ul] [li] The authors are associated with a department of pure & applied physics. Neither is a biologist, nor do they mention having even consulted with one, which is odd since the entire premise of their paper hangs on the identification of unusual biological structures. [/li][li] The testable hypothesis here is that these “cells” are of biological origin; there ought to be samples made available to other researchers to confirm or refute the hypothesis. It’s early days yet to address this point, since the paper hasn’t even appeared in print yet. However, while it is remotely possible that the red rain over Kerala was a near-unique event in our history, the authors haven’t done a very good job at all of addressing comparisons with other red rain events (which ideally would have included them at least trying to obtain samples from the other events for comparison). They haven’t even tried to poke holes in their own hypothesis by considering what else these “DNA-less cells” could be. It’s a weak argument.[/li][li] If they had truly found strong evidence for extraterrestrial cells, the world’s foremost scientific journals, _Science_ and _Nature,_ would have fallen all over themselves to have first crack at publishing - PROVIDED that the paper passed rigorous peer review. The fact that this paper is appearing in _Astrophysics & Space Science_ tells me the paper is not up to that standard. It’s unlikely that a reviewer for that journal would have the biological expertise necessary to evaluate that part of the paper, and then you have to say… what’s the point of publishing, beyond making a little splash?[/ul][/li] Sorry Wesley, but I don’t think anyone has stumbled onto anything really exciting and new here. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/13 "2006-03-15T14:41:03Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > You think because there was a lot of material, that makes it more likely that it comes from outer space? When we have billions of tons of life-like material made right here on Earth? The more the material, the _more likely_ it comes from Earth. > > Yeah, bats specifically sounds a bit unlikely, but not as unlikely as it not coming from the planet it was found on, when that planet is a known source of vast amounts life. But it should therefore be identifiable. It is not. As organic molecules have been detected in comets I have no difficulty entertaining this as an hypothesis. If it was terrestrial then I’d expect this sort of thing to happen more often. I mentioned the bat thing as an example of how bloody ridiculous some attempts to explain the ‘strange’ are. IMHO extraterrestrial origins is many times more likely than exploding bats. It’s those sort of ‘explanations’ to get rid of inconvenient observations that sometimes give scientists a bad name. Look how many decades plate tectonics was considered pure crankery. Consider also how archaeology still ignores the nicotine and cocaine found in mummies in collections all over the world. Transatlantic trade didn’t happen, therefore we are going to ignore these observations. Like ET organic material I find nothing inherently improbable about transoceanic trade in ancient times. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/14 "2006-03-15T14:56:51Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Consider also how archaeology still ignores the nicotine and cocaine found in mummies in collections all over the world. Transatlantic trade didn’t happen, therefore we are going to ignore these observations. I’m just curious – where did you hear about this? I’d like to read about it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/15 "2006-03-15T15:08:02Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > I’m just curious – where did you hear about this? I’d like to read about it. It’s well-known. google cocaine mummies. First reaction was to accuse the researcher of fraud. Second reaction was to say a cigarette smoking cocaine-head must have polluted the samples. When the same results were found in many collections the collective response was to ignore it and now it is considered career-ending even to investigate it. Like plate tectonics was. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/16 "2006-03-15T15:10:32Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > But it should therefore be identifiable. It is not. As organic molecules have been detected in comets I have no difficulty entertaining this as an hypothesis. Just because it was not identifed yet, does not mean it is unidentiable. Suppose you live in city with many, many factories that make small games and toys. The place is lousy with these factories. That’s all it does. You come across a box of dice in this city. You cannot immediately identify which local factory the dice come from. Does that mean it’s more likely that it was made in a dice factory in another country, when you don’t even know for sure that country exists, let alone whether they produce dice or not? > [@tagos](#): > > If it was terrestrial then I’d expect this sort of thing to happen more often. I’m sure it was simulpost, but **sunfish** addressed that. > [@tagos](#): > > I mentioned the bat thing as an example of how bloody ridiculous some attempts to explain the ‘strange’ are. > > IMHO extraterrestrial origins is many times more likely than exploding bats. Since it’s a documented fact that bats exists, in the same area (I suppose) where this happened, bats are a vastly more likely explanation than ETs. My probablilty wag: Some non-terrestrial (non-bat) explanation: 95% the bat theory: %4.9999 ETs: .0001 FWIW, I think ET organic travel is also very likely in the universe. But when there’s vast amounts of home-grown organic stuff already in a place, when you find more in that place, the the likelyhood of the new stuff also being homegrown is huge. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/17 "2006-03-15T15:17:12Z")
> [@sunfish](#): > > but I think the authors of that paper are wrong. > > The phenomenon of “red rain” has been documented in a number of places around the world, and in fact there was a previous paper (published in 2004) on the Kerala event. In those cases, iron-rich windblown dust was fingered as the coloring agent. > > When reading a paper that makes as sensational a claim as this one, it’s good to ask yourself a few questions:[ul] > [li] Do the authors include people with the appropriate expertise to have investigated and described the phenomenon?[/li][li] Do the authors provide a sound, testable hypothesis in their explanation of the phenomenon? Do they give an adequate explanation as to why theirs is a special case, compared to other known occurrences of a similar phenomenon?[/li][li] What weight does the choice of publication venue lend to the conclusions put forth by the authors?[/ul][/li] > In the case of this paper, we have the following:[ul] > [li] The authors are associated with a department of pure & applied physics. Neither is a biologist, nor do they mention having even consulted with one, which is odd since the entire premise of their paper hangs on the identification of unusual biological structures. [/li][li] The testable hypothesis here is that these “cells” are of biological origin; there ought to be samples made available to other researchers to confirm or refute the hypothesis. It’s early days yet to address this point, since the paper hasn’t even appeared in print yet. However, while it is remotely possible that the red rain over Kerala was a near-unique event in our history, the authors haven’t done a very good job at all of addressing comparisons with other red rain events (which ideally would have included them at least trying to obtain samples from the other events for comparison). They haven’t even tried to poke holes in their own hypothesis by considering what else these “DNA-less cells” could be. It’s a weak argument.[/li][li] If they had truly found strong evidence for extraterrestrial cells, the world’s foremost scientific journals, _Science_ and _Nature,_ would have fallen all over themselves to have first crack at publishing - PROVIDED that the paper passed rigorous peer review. The fact that this paper is appearing in _Astrophysics & Space Science_ tells me the paper is not up to that standard. It’s unlikely that a reviewer for that journal would have the biological expertise necessary to evaluate that part of the paper, and then you have to say… what’s the point of publishing, beyond making a little splash?[/ul][/li] > Sorry Wesley, but I don’t think anyone has stumbled onto anything really exciting and new here. The paper specifically addresses and rejects the ‘dust’ argument on several grounds. Not the least of them being that the writers of that report didn’t examine samples. Do those pictures look like dust to you? See Fig 7. That looks like a cell. May not be, but I don’t think dust has a membrane. This study is the most comprehensive to date yet you dismiss it out of hand. I don’t know what they are but IMHO your ‘handwaving’ attitude to something potentially new is sadly typical of how science operates when faced with a new and potentially ground-breaking phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/18 "2006-03-15T15:21:24Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I don’t know what they are but IMHO your ‘handwaving’ attitude to something potentially new is sadly typical of how science operates when faced with a new and potentially ground-breaking phenomena. It’s much more sad to me to ignore basic probability just because it doesn’t point to what you hope is true. I hope it’s ET life too, but I cannot simply ignore vastly more probable explanations because they aren’t as cool. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/19 "2006-03-15T15:21:53Z")
Why aren’t there some biologists kicking the doors down to get hold of some of this stuff? As you point out, astronomers may not be the best people to investigate it. While I agree that it is probably some kind of terrestrial weirdness going on, the slow way it’s being investigated is maddening. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367/20 "2006-03-15T15:22:50Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Since it’s a documented fact that bats exists, in the same area (I suppose) where this happened, bats are a vastly more likely explanation than ETs. No - the bats idea is lunacy. I challenge you to come up with a credible mechanism for 50,000 kg of bat blood cells to end up falling from the sky for months. That’s a lot of bats. Even if we assume a bat weighs a kg that’s 50,000 bats killed in one huge explosion no-one witnesses and no other bits of bat fall from the sky. It simply is not credible to any percentage of probability. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-ever-figure-out-what-the-red-rain-in-kerala-was/348367.md?page=2)