# Did people pre-1492 really think the world was flat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586 "2002-11-06T18:38:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ety3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7feea3/32.png) [@ety3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ety3)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/1 "2002-11-06T18:38:20Z")
As many times as we’ve all heard, “People used to think the world was flat, …” I’ve wondered if that was true. Not counting those Flat Earth Society nutjobs, did a majority of people at some point in recent history think the world was flat? Also, are the references to a flat earth in the Bible poetic or reflective of the general concensus of the time? I don’t want to start a religious debate; I’m just interested if they really believed the Earth was flat. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/2 "2002-11-06T18:46:55Z")
When I took my Western Civilization history course, one of the first things the professor told the class was that contrary to what we had probably been told up to that point, _educated_ people knew that the world was not flat. I can’t remember the guy’s name right now, but he was the first person to determine the circumference of the earth, that was pre-1492 and he knew that the earth wasn’t flat. At one point in time, I’m sure there were people that believed the earth was flat. It was much, much earlier than 1492 though. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/3 "2002-11-06T18:48:56Z")
History professor Jeffrey Burton Russell, [“The Myth of the Flat Earth”](http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html): > [@](#): > > It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. > > A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters – Leukippos and Demokritos for example – by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates (2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/4 "2002-11-06T18:52:49Z")
Educated people have known that the world was round at least back to the time of Eratosthenes, whose measurement of its circumference relies on a round earth, and is pointless without it. The sages of Salamanca with whom Columbus disagreed weren’t arguing that the earth was flat, but that Columbus’ idea of its size (and even shape) were wrong. They thought he held it to be too small. They were right. Columbus suceeded in spite of his ignorance, because, although China and the Indies were much farther away than he thought, the Americas were in the way – which no one suspected. Certainly your average person throughout history probably thought the earth was flat – if he thought about it much at all. George Bernard Shaw (I think) gave the definitive argument – “Look at it”. It’s probably only in the last couple of centuries that a majority of the population has come to know and believe that the world was round. It’s also in that time that it has come to have direct importance to most people. See Richard Shenkman’s book **Legends, Lies, and Cherished Myths of American History** , or the books **A Natural History of Nonsense** and **On the Spoor of Spooks**. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/5 "2002-11-06T18:54:44Z")
No. In Columbus’ time all educated people in the West knew that the world was round, the only question was how far around it was. Columbus hoped to prove that it was much smaller than was commonly believed and that it would be easier to reach the Orient by sailing West than East. He was completely wrong about this and was lucky that he ran into the New World by accident. While there were historic cultures that did not realize that the Earth was round there were many even in ancient times that did. Not only that, but Eratosthenes (276 to 194 BCE) managed to come up with a near-accurate figure for the Earth’s circumferance based on calculations involving the measurements of shadows on the equinox in Alexandria and Syrene and the distance between those two cities. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/6 "2002-11-06T19:10:17Z")
A story written by Washington Irving in the 1800s is the origin of the myth that Columbus’ goal was to prove the world to be round. Google on “Washington Irving Columbus Earth” for lots of references. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/7 "2002-11-06T19:15:39Z")
Irving’s book was _The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus_ published in 1828. ---
**Author:** ![mazzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mazzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazzer)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/8 "2002-11-06T20:07:55Z")
Here is an interesting article just published a couple weeks ago in the _New Yorker_; it postulates (or rather, the book it reviews postulates) that CC thought the world was a big mammary: [http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?021014crbo\_books](http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?021014crbo_books) > [@](#): > > Great quantities of fresh water were flowing into the ocean; the climate seemed unusually temperate for a region so close to the equator; and the North Star was wandering from its course. Putting all this together, Columbus reasoned that the world was shaped like a ball with a breastlike protuberance. He felt himself not just crossing the ocean but going up it, his whole ship being lifted gently toward the sky. Had he reached the very tip of the protuberance, he concluded, he would have sailed straight into the Terrestrial Paradise. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/9 "2002-11-06T20:42:47Z")
“He felt himself not just crossing the ocean but going up it, his whole ship being lifted gently toward the sky. Had he reached the very tip of the protuberance, he concluded, he would have sailed straight into the Terrestrial Paradise.” Could this have been him noticing the Earth’s bulge around the equator? Or would that have been too subtle? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/10 "2002-11-06T21:26:53Z")
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that article is full of it. Sorry, but it just seems a bit too ludicrous for me. ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/11 "2002-11-07T01:41:20Z")
As noted several times in responses above, educated people in the western world generally understood that the world was round starting at least with the Age of Pericles. Years ago in an astronomy class I learned four arguments given by ancient Greeks for believing that the world is round: 1.) Travelers who go far to the north or south find that familiar stars disappear over the horizon behind them and new stars rise up in the direction in which they are headed. This suggests that our view of the sky is obstructed from being on a round surface. 2.) When a ship sails off in the distance it does not merely get smaller and smaller until it disappears from view. Rather, it appears to sink into the ocean, suggesting that it is passing over a curved surface which “rises up” to block our view. 3.) Observations of the earth’s shadow as it is cast on the moon demonstrate that it is a curved surface. Similarly, observations of the moon’s phases show that it is not a flat disc, but a sphere. 4.) About the farthest anyone had ever traveled west and brought back reliable information is the northwestern coast of Africa. There is a peculiar species of animal found there called (in English) “the elephant”. About the farthest east anyone had ever traveled who has brought back reliable information is India. There are elephants there too. Conclusion? India is right around the corner from northwest Africa. Well, three out of four ain’t bad. This forth argument points up a misunderstanding educated people did have: although attempts by ancient Greeks to estimate the circumference of the earth appear to have come within a few hundred miles of the correct measurement (there are some arguments about how to interpret the units of measurement that were employed), educated people commonly misjudged just how big around the earth was. Sometimes they thought it was way bigger than it was, and sometimes they thought it was way smaller. As alluded to before, Columbus differed with prevailing opininion of his time primarily as to how big the earth was. And he was wrong; hence his mistaken belief that he had reached the East Indies. The Greeks had further believed that there was a land mass around the south pole, as this permitted the earth to remain stable and not roll around. This belief in a southernmost continent was accepted on faith for centuries. It may account for why Antarctica is called “Antarctica” “Arctic” derives from the Latina for north. And “Antarctic”? It means opposite of the north. Why not call it after the Latin word for south? Because Captain Cook–who was the first westerner to see Antarctica–had already used it. He had used the name “Australia” (“southland”) to refer to…Australia. He is said to have mistakenly supposed that the land mass he saw was the northern protrusion of the great south pole continent which he already assumed existed. Hence maps of the late 1700s showing Australia and Antarctica as parts of one vast undefined continent. Biblical references to the flatness of the earth are generally taken to have been meant literally. St. Augustine, for one, argued that the earth had to be flat because the Bible says so. As late at the 19th Century Biblical literalists (or people who claim to be such) were still greatly bothered by the idea that the world might be round. Alfred Ward Russell, the co-developer of the Theory of Evolution, was harassed for decades by Biblical literalists who demanded he “admit” that his experiment to show the curvature of the earth had failed. Since then Biblical “literalists” have, in the main, become choosier about wht arguments to pick. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/12 "2002-11-07T01:47:10Z")
Little more than 100 years ago many Christian fundamentalists in South Africa, including the President of the country, believed the world to be flat. Joshua Slocum, the first man to sail around the world single handed, tells it in [his story (which is now in the public domain)](http://www.arthur-ransome.org/ar/literary/sloc2_17.htm): > [@](#): > > It sounds odd to hear scholars and statesmen say the world is flat; but it is a fact that three Boers favoured by the opinion of President Kruger prepared a work to support that contention. While I was at Durban they came from Pretoria to obtain data from me, and they seemed annoyed when I told them that they could not prove it by my experience. With the advice to call up some ghost of the dark ages for research, I went ashore, and left these three wise men poring over the Spray’s track on a chart of the world, which, however, proved nothing to them, for it was on Mercator’s projection, and behold, it was “flat.” The next morning I met one of the party in a clergyman’s garb, carrying a large Bible, not different from the one I had read. He tackled me, saying, “If you respect the Word of God, you must admit that the world is flat.” "If the Word of God stands on a flat world " I began. “What!” cried he, losing himself in a passion, and making as if he would run me through with an assagai. “What!” he shouted in astonishment and rage, while I jumped aside to dodge the imaginary weapon. Had this good but misguided fanatic been armed with a real weapon, the crew of the Spray would have died a martyr there and then. The next day, seeing him across the street, I bowed and made curves with my hands. He responded with a level, swimming movement of his hands, meaning “the world is flat.” A pamphlet by these Transvaal geographers, made up of arguments from sources high and low to prove their theory, was mailed to me before I sailed from Africa on my last stretch around the globe. Another quote: > [@](#): > > [http://209.11.144.65/eldritchpress/js/a18.htm](http://209.11.144.65/eldritchpress/js/a18.htm) > > At the last-named place I met Mr. Krüger, the Transvaal president. His Excellency received me cordially enough; but my friend Judge Beyers, the gentleman who presented me, by mentioning that I was on a voyage around the world, unwittingly gave great offense to the venerable statesman, which we both regretted deeply. Mr. Krüger corrected the judge rather sharply, reminding him that the world is flat. “You don’t mean round the world,” said the president; “it is impossible! You mean in the world. Impossible!” he said, “impossible!” and not another word did he utter either to the judge or to me. The judge looked at me and I looked at the judge, who should have known his ground, so to speak, and Mr. Krüger glowered at us both. My friend the judge seemed embarrassed, but I was delighted; the incident pleased me more than anything else that could have happened. It was a nugget of information quarried out of Oom Paul, some of whose sayings are famous. Of the English he said, “They took first my coat and then my trousers.” He also said, “Dynamite is the corner-stone of the South African Republic.” Only unthinking people call President Krüger dull. ---
**Author:** ![Swede\_Hollow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/13 "2002-11-07T02:54:21Z")
James Burke made note that the first globe came out before Columbus discovered (or re-discovered if you prefer) the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/14 "2002-11-07T04:45:00Z")
I’ve never understood the claim that “Columbus proved the world was round”. Surely that claim belongs to the survivors of Magellan’s expedition (which doesn’t include Magellan himself) of 1519-1522, who were the first to circumnavigate the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/15 "2002-11-07T13:43:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I’ve never understood the claim that “Columbus proved the world was round”. Surely that claim belongs to the survivors of Magellan’s expedition (which doesn’t include Magellan himself) of 1519-1522, who were the first to circumnavigate the planet. \*\* As I previously stated, the idea that Columbus had anything to do with proving the world was round was only a myth started by Washington Irving’s book. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/16 "2002-11-07T14:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Here is an interesting article just published a couple weeks ago in the New Yorker; it postulates (or rather, the book it reviews postulates) that CC thought the world was a big mammary: This is old news – I’ve read it before. It’s really Columbus’ weak attempt to counter criticisms that his idea of the Earth’s size was wrong. He suggested that maybe its diameter at the latitude od Spain was smaller than it really ought to be for a sphere, giving you a pear- or breast-shaped Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-people-pre-1492-really-think-the-world-was-flat/135586/17 "2002-11-07T14:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve never understood the claim that “Columbus proved the world was round”. Surely that claim belongs to the survivors of Magellan’s expedition (which doesn’t include Magellan himself) of 1519-1522, who were the first to circumnavigate the planet. You beat me to it. All Columbus proved was that he couldn’t find his backside using both hands, and would conveniently ignore all the evidence that he patently was not in Asia to suit his own ends. [gloat]And this thread has particular resonance for me, because I’m off on a round-the-world trip in two days![/gloat]