# Did Phil Collins kill prog Genesis, or did Steve Hackett's leaving do it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 9, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279 "2005-11-09T21:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/1 "2005-11-09T21:11:41Z")
I know conventional wisdom says that Phil Collins caused Genesis to abandon its prog roots, and become a pop band. However, I was looking at the chronology of albums, and it seems to me that what actually made Genesis into a pop band was Steve Hackett’s leaving. Consider that after Phil Collins took over, but before Hackett left, they released _Trick of the Tail_ and _Wind & Wuthering_ with such tracks as Squonk, Entangled, All In a Mouse’s Night, Wot Gorilla and …In that Quiet Earth. Which are both clearly still prog. However, after Hackett left, they almost immediately shift to albums like _Duke_ and _Abacab_, the start of the Genesis pop albums. I’m told the first non Hackett album _…and then there was three_ was prog but I have not heard it. It could be that it took Phil Collins awhile to find the sound he wanted to break into the pop scene with, or had trouble convincing the rest of the band, but I think it is very telling that Genesis went to pop almost immediately after Hackett left. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/2 "2005-11-09T21:27:29Z")
From the stories I’ve read, the change in direction was mutual. Mike and Tony wanted to do shorter songs as much as Phil. “Follow You Follow Me” (from …and then there were three) was a minor pop hit in the US. This opened the door to a new legion of fans (albeit of the post-Gabriel lineup). The band acknowledged upsetting fans of the old days, but didn’t apologize for it. Check out _Genesis: A History_ or VH1’s Legends. Lots of great stories about the transition. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/3 "2005-11-09T21:28:48Z")
Two things: (a) In a Genesis documentary I have on VHS tape, Tony Banks is given much credit for Genesis’ overall sound and direction - more than Phil Collins. (b) On that same tape, Phil mentions how he never really wanted to be bucketed with Yes and King Crimson (it’s been awhile since I’ve watched it, but I’m pretty sure he specifically names those two bands), but rather with musicians like [Sam (Moore) and Dave (Prater)](http://www.history-of-rock.com/sam_and_dave.htm) and [Sam Cooke](http://www.history-of-rock.com/cooke.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/4 "2005-11-09T21:36:12Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > I’m told the first non Hackett album _…and then there was three_ was prog but I have not heard it. No more so than _Duke_, and it contains the first truly _rancid_ Genesis song, “Follow You Follow Me” (some would nominate “Your Own Special Way” for that title, but I find that one tolerable). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/5 "2005-11-09T23:35:12Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > No more so than _Duke_, and it contains the first truly _rancid_ Genesis song, “Follow You Follow Me” (some would nominate “Your Own Special Way” for that title, but I find that one tolerable). Bah! Phil’s first turn at lead vocals on “More Fool Me” back on _Selling England by the Pound_ if the first. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/6 "2005-11-09T23:44:57Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Bah! Phil’s first turn at lead vocals on “More Fool Me” back on _Selling England by the Pound_ if the first. Nitpick: That wasn’t PC’s first lead vocal with Genesis. He sang “For Absent Friends” on _Nursery Cryme_. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/7 "2005-11-10T02:01:24Z")
I have no idea. I just hope they stay dead. Along with Journey. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/8 "2005-11-10T02:07:04Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Along with Journey. I hate to tell you (well, not really, cos, if I really did, I wouldn’t :D), but Journey is still around and touring (without Steve Perry, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/9 "2005-11-10T02:15:00Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > I have no idea. > > I just hope they stay dead. > > Along with Journey. There was a Yahoo headline this week that talked about a reunion of the Gabriel-era Genesis. I’d like that (and am pissed that I missed The Musical Box’s show in Cleveland last weekend). But if your “hope they stay dead” sentiment is based on 80’s Genesis, I agree. To address the OP - I think the three of them intentionally sold out. But to be fair, prog was in its death throes even by the time **Trick of the Tail** came out around 1975. They had to change or die. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/10 "2005-11-10T02:28:00Z")
I first got into Genesis with _Abacab_ and _Genesis_. Lots of good stuff there. It wasn’t until the last few years that I started getting into the Gabriel years. _From Genesis to Revelation_ has a lot of amazing songs on it (no Collins yet). I’m slowly working my way through those years. The Collins years took a decided turn for the worse with _Invisible Touch_ and _We Can’t Dance_ sucked. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/11 "2005-11-10T02:44:00Z")
We Can’t Dance has a few very good songs. Fading Lights, Driving the Last Spike, and Dreaming While You Sleep. Genesis continued to evolve after the departure of Hackett. I’d consider And Then There Were Three to be one of the weakest albums. As far as killing prog Genesis, they always had at least one or two prog songs on every album. Even Invisible Touch had Domino. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/12 "2005-11-10T12:56:10Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > Nitpick: That wasn’t PC’s first lead vocal with Genesis. He sang “For Absent Friends” on _Nursery Cryme_. But…but…but…I like “For Absent Friends”. Maybe that’s why I blocked it out. 🆒 _j/k Phil_ ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/13 "2005-12-04T01:37:27Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > I’m told the first non Hackett album _…and then there was three_ was prog but I have not heard it. [resurrects old thread] _And Then There Were Three_ is full-on prog, don’t be fooled by “Follow You, Follow Me”. But prog or not, it’s one of their best albums. “Down and Out”, “Many Too Many”, “Undertow”, “Burning Rope”… these are really good songs whatever the genre. I think of it as a Tony Banks album, and that’s no bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/14 "2005-12-04T01:38:45Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > I think of it as a Tony Banks album, and that’s no bad thing. Ever hear _The Fugitive_? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-phil-collins-kill-prog-genesis-or-did-steve-hacketts-leaving-do-it/330279/15 "2005-12-04T01:57:42Z")
Hey, you said earlier “…Abacab and Genesis. Lots of good stuff there.” Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.