# Did Progressive do something bad by being adverse to it's insured? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772 "2012-08-17T13:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/61 "2012-08-19T18:28:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why in the world would the fact that the law would side with them have anything to do with determining the morality of the situation? THE LAW IS 100% IRRELEVANT TO MORALITY. In any situation where the law is seemingly relevant to morality, one can determine the morality without using the law. The only exception is if you didn’t know the code of morals the people currently used, and had to guess using the law, and even then you are using the ethics you guessed about, and not the law itself. So a for profit corporation, in business to make money, should pay when not legally required to out of the goodness of its heart??? That’s absurd. I know it’s easy to hate insurance companies, but how is it immoral to pay exactly what has been contracted for? What if I don’t buy flood insurance, but have regular homeowners and my house is destroyed by flood? Should they do the “moral” thing and pay? Where is this higher moral duty in a strict business relationship and what are the parameters of it? Does it go both ways? Is there a situation where I should do MORE for my insurance company than I am legally obligated to do? What is that situation? Again, it sounds like everyone who is mad at Progressive should be mad at the Maryland legislature instead. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/62 "2012-08-19T20:16:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So a for profit corporation, in business to make money, should pay when not legally required to out of the goodness of its heart??? That’s absurd. I know it’s easy to hate insurance companies, but how is it immoral to pay exactly what has been contracted for? So you are agreed that corporations are and should be amoral sociopaths whose only concern is money? Hmmm. This is useful information! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/63 "2012-08-19T22:22:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Insurance is actually just a form of communal savings. There are some expenses that are so large that most of us will not be able to pay if we encounter those expenses but the chances of incurring those expenses are also fairly remote. > > So for example, lets say that a housefire costs $100K. We expect one house fire per 1000 homes every 5 years. So 100 of us put $90 into a pool and let it accrete interest over 5 years so that we have 100K at the end of 5 years when we need it. Now obviously there are some flaws with the example but you get the idea. You get more out as a group than you put in because the insurance company is basically earning X% on your money and paying out claims that imply a (X-Y)% return. I’m well aware of how insurance is supposed to work, thank you. > [@Ruby](#): > > Theoretically, every company in this state would have handled this the same way. If there was a question of liability on the part of the insured, any insurer has the _duty_ to their policyholders/stockholders to assess liability appropriately. Let me repeat myself: > [@Bosstone](#): > > Perhaps. But the optimist in me says that if these practices become known to the public, and the public states quite clearly, whether through dropping their Progressive insurance or by speaking out, that such practices are reprehensible, we might start seeing a shift in insurance practices. Besides, your statement doesn’t address the concerns that Progressive did not handle this impartially, such as dismissing one witness’s testimony in favor of another’s. There’s a significant difference in investigation to ensure someone doesn’t get a payout they’re not entitled to and manipulating things to provide the desired outcome. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/64 "2012-08-20T00:28:05Z")
It seems to me insurance companies frequently cross the line between “trying not to pay false claims” to just “trying not to pay”, period. This may be well within their legal rights, but to treat people that way when they’ve just been hit by personal tragedy is truly scummy. One anecdotal example: A guy I work with had his roof torn off by a tornado. He had to deal with the insurance guy arguing every point “How do we know that water damage wasn’t there before the tornado”, etc. (He’d just bought the house a year before, so the chances that he had stupidly bought a house with major damage to it, or managed to cause a bunch of tornado-like damage in 1 year of ownership only to then, coincidentally, be hit by a tornado…) Fortunately for my coworker, he had done a videotaped walk through right after he bought the place. So he was eventually able to force the insurance company to pay up. But that’s just it, he shouldn’t _have to_ force them. An honorable insurance company (if such a thing existed), would say "Yeah, this looks like tornado damage, and we know the town just got hit by a tornado. Let’s not be _complete assholes_ just to pad our bottom line. And yes, if that means everyone pays a little more in insurance so people who’ve lost loved ones to car accidents or natural disasters don’t get treated like dirt, it’s worth it. And I’d gladly pay a little more to be sure I (or my loved ones) aren’t treated that way when tragedy strikes. But I don’t think I even have that option, because as far as I can tell _every_ insurance company is run by assholes, even while they all swear up and down that you can count on them in your time of need. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/65 "2012-08-20T13:53:20Z")
It seems as if Progressive knows how to rip off its customers pretty good…PRE-tay good. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/66 "2012-08-20T15:18:03Z")
Every insurance policy I’ve ever read starts with: > [@](#): > > Various provisions in this policy restrict coverage. Read the entire policy carefully to determine rights, duties and what is and is not covered. How many of those here who are ranting against insurance companies have read the binding contract that you pay for? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/67 "2012-08-20T15:27:33Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Every insurance policy I’ve ever read starts with: > How many of those here who are ranting against insurance companies have read the binding contract that you pay for? Nobody reads the contracts. That’s why insurance companies have agents and customer service people, to explain your policy in plain English so you don’t have to bother scanning the fine print. That’s not how normal people want to operate. My sister-in-law works at Progressive, and she told me that Progressive was a party to the lawsuit. The AP story in the OP claims that Progressive “interjected” itself into the lawsuit. I’m thinking this might be bad reporting. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/68 "2012-08-20T15:29:55Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Nobody reads the contracts. That’s why insurance companies have agents and customer service people, to explain your policy in plain English so you don’t have to bother scanning the fine print. That’s not how normal people want to operate. Oh, then hooray for ignorance. It’s weird to see that celebrated on this forum. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/69 "2012-08-20T15:50:51Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh, then hooray for ignorance. It’s weird to see that celebrated on this forum. There’s nothing ignorant about not being willing to spend any amount of your precious, precious lifespan reading an insurance contract from cover to cover so that you can not find some cunning loophole. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/70 "2012-08-20T15:57:42Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > There’s nothing ignorant about not being willing to spend any amount of your precious, precious lifespan reading an insurance contract from cover to cover so that you can not find some cunning loophole. Then don’t post hoc bitch when you want something covered that wasn’t. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/71 "2012-08-20T15:58:12Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > There’s nothing ignorant about not being willing to spend any amount of your precious, precious lifespan reading an insurance contract from cover to cover so that you can not find some cunning loophole. Even if I did, since I’m not an insurance professional, or lawyer I wouldn’t have noticed that this > [@](#): > > We will pay compensatory damages for > bodily injury an insured is legally entitled > to collect from the owner or driver of an > uninsured motor vehicle or an underinsured > motor vehicle. actually means “We will cheerfully mount an aggressive legal defense for the under/uninsured driver who killed our customer, so we can avoid paying any money to our customer’s orphaned children.” ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/72 "2012-08-20T16:03:45Z")
This ended up being a major PR nightmare for Progressive. I understand the decedents lawyer stated that Progressive quickly settled when the video the brother made went viral. The lawyer claimed the settlement was for 10s of thousands of dollars more than they had sought. One wonders what would have happened if the PR had not backfired on them. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/73 "2012-08-20T16:29:04Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Then don’t post hoc bitch when you want something covered that wasn’t. Simple as that. That’s a stupid standard that only joyless curmudgeons and misanthropes espouse. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/74 "2012-08-20T16:36:29Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > That’s a stupid standard that only joyless curmudgeons and misanthropes espouse. I’ll enjoy your ad hominems when they’re relevant or purposeful. Since this is not, I am not enjoying it. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/75 "2012-08-20T22:37:07Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > My sister-in-law works at Progressive, and she told me that Progressive was a party to the lawsuit. The AP story in the OP claims that Progressive “interjected” itself into the lawsuit. I’m thinking this might be bad reporting. Quote from the blog post that set all this off: _Out of a sense of honor, and out of a sense of the cost of my sister’s outstanding student loans, my folks opted to try to go after the money through legal channels. At which point they learned another delightful thing. In Maryland, you may not sue an insurance company when they refuse to fork over your money. Instead, what they had to do was sue the guy who killed my sister, establish his negligence in court, and then leverage that decision to force Progressive to pay the policy._ ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/76 "2012-08-20T23:19:53Z")
> [@Ruby](#): > > Think what you will, but after 35 years in this business, I’ve never seen a company “fight tooth and nail beyond reasonable bounds” to not pay a claim. The companies that I’ve worked for go out of their way to _find_ coverage, not deny it. Does it seem like Progressive went out of their way to find coverage in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/77 "2012-08-20T23:26:12Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh, then hooray for ignorance. It’s weird to see that celebrated on this forum. Those contracts are written specifically to be illegible to any normal person. If the rate of full review and comprehension of contracts is something like 1% it stands to logic that the measurement of the quality of an insurance product lies mostly outside the actual contract. Verbal summary by insurance retailers, industry standards, advertising assertions ect. The same is true for many types of contract. My mortgage contract was over 100 pages long and in order to get funding in time for the home purchase we had th notary/rep come to the house for electronic signatures. If we didn’t rely on the representative for the summary of the content of the contract we would not have had time to sign and get funding. Our mortgage is a good low fixed rate and works as we expected it to. A tape recorder and good questioning gave us our peace of mind. Using the law to rob people will only be legal so long as good people do nothing. It is only profitable when people don’t go public and drag the company through the mud and into the daylight when they’re obviously being amoral people who do not deserve to be in their industry. The defense of this company by people in this thread is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/78 "2012-08-20T23:30:27Z")
> [@Ruby](#): > > … > Think what you will, but after 35 years in this business, I’ve never seen a company “fight tooth and nail beyond reasonable bounds” to not pay a claim. The companies that I’ve worked for go out of their way to _find_ coverage, not deny it. So, given the facts as we know them in this case, what are you saying? 1. Progressive just couldn’t find a way to justify coverage, but they probably wanted to pay out. 2. Progressive acted in a reasonable manner, using common industry practices, and the criticism in unwarranted. 3. I’ve never heard of a story like this, but if it’s true, Progressive was acting way out of bounds of normal insurance practices in order to deny payment. 4. Something else? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/79 "2012-08-20T23:49:50Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Quote from the blog post that set all this off: > _Out of a sense of honor, and out of a sense of the cost of my sister’s outstanding student loans, my folks opted to try to go after the money through legal channels. At which point they learned another delightful thing.In Maryland, you may not sue an insurance company when they refuse to fork over your money.Instead, what they had to do was sue the guy who killed my sister, establish his negligence in court, and then leverage that decision to force Progressive to pay the policy._ From the [Baltimore Sun](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-08-14/business/bs-bz-progressive-fisher-20120814_1_progressive-matt-fisher-online-chatter): > [@](#): > > “To be very clear, Progressive did not serve as the attorney for the defendant in this case,” Chris Wolf, claims general manager for Progressive, said in an email Tuesday. “He was defended by his insurance company, Nationwide.” > > The case — a study in the power of the Internet to galvanize consumers and affect business — revolves around the death of Kaitlynn Eileen Fisher. **Her parents, Joan and Stephen Fisher, filed a lawsuit against the driver and Progressive in March 2011**. Emphasis mine. It looks to me like the AP reported this story poorly. They made it sound like Progressive butted in to the lawsuit by assisting the defendant, when in actuality they were a party to the suit. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772/80 "2012-08-21T00:01:29Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Those contracts are written specifically to be illegible to any normal person.. Cite or STFU. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-progressive-do-something-bad-by-being-adverse-to-its-insured/631772.md?page=5)