# Did putins Russia help North Korea get a working icbm **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636 "2017-08-14T15:27:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/1 "2017-08-14T15:27:09Z")
I read an article today that said North Korea got missile technology from Russia and the Ukraine. A few years ago their missiles could only hit Japan, now they can reach Boston. [https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/north-korea-north-korea-missiles-north-korea-nuclear-north-korea-missiles-650504%3Famp=1](https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/north-korea-north-korea-missiles-north-korea-nuclear-north-korea-missiles-650504%3famp=1) So the question is, was this a top down operation with Russian government approval? This does cause the US headaches, so I could see the incentive for Russia and the pro Russia parts of the Ukraine to work to make North Korea a bigger headache for America. Or was it rogue workers selling technology? With something that secretive and important as icbms you’d assume the government would have to be involved. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/2 "2017-08-15T13:51:28Z")
From what I’ve read, there’s no actual evidence of a technology transfer. This is someone’s inference that the development of the technology must have involved Russia or the Ukraine. Given that, any speculation about who might have been part of something that might have happened is likely to be pretty unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/3 "2017-08-15T16:02:54Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I read an article today that said North Korea got missile technology from Russia and the Ukraine. A few years ago their missiles could only hit Japan, now they can reach Boston. > > [Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/north-korea-north-korea-missiles-north-korea-nuclear-north-korea-missiles-650504%3famp=1) > > So the question is, was this a top down operation with Russian government approval? This does cause the US headaches, so I could see the incentive for Russia and the pro Russia parts of the Ukraine to work to make North Korea a bigger headache for America. > > Or was it rogue workers selling technology? With something that secretive and important as icbms you’d assume the government would have to be involved. I read that too, and perhaps it’s true to an extent, but I’d still say China (well, several of the anti-Xi factions who are very pro-NK) helped the most. I just did a quick Google search so haven’t fully read the article, but from [here](http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/north-koreas-been-building-missiles-little-help-their-20166): > [@](#): > > North Korea’s Been Building Missiles With A Little Help From Their Chinese Neighbors > > North Korea’s indigenous missile program is advancing rapidly, but it looks like they’ve had some help from their friends. > > The North carried out around two dozen rocket and ballistic missile tests last year, and so far this year, it has launched at least seven. They are making progress, but it looks like the parts for their weapons are not originating in North Korea. Many of the essential components of North Korea’s ballistic missiles are foreign-made and were provided by companies operating out of China, reports the Washington Post. > > (This first appeared in The Daily Caller here.) > > North Korea launched an earth observation satellite into orbit in February of last year using an Unha-3 rocket, which some observers believe to be the predecessor of a potential North Korean intercontinental ballistic missile. The North attached explosives to the various stages of the rocket to prevent other countries from recovering the parts after separation; nonetheless, South Korea was able to recover enough parts to reconstruct the rocket. > > Post-recovery analysis revealed that the parts were not indigenously produced; rather, they were foreign-sourced components provided by firms in China, a recent United Nations report concluded. > > UN resolutions prohibit countries from exporting materials capable of being used to develop missiles and nuclear weapons to the North, which has threatened to use weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. and its allies on countless occasions. > > More than 80 percent of all North Korean imports come from China, and while the Chinese government denies that its companies export illegal products, evidence suggests that this practice is not uncommon, especially in the border regions. For instance, an Institute for Science and International Security report revealed that Shenyang Machine Tools Company in Northeastern China sent banned products to North Korea, a country with which the company maintains close ties, as recently as late 2015. There are tons of articles on this, but basically, there are factions in China that were previously in power who heavily supported NK and its role as a thorn in the US’s sides, and now those factions are still helping out the NK’s with their program through ‘private’ Chinese companies. ETA: As to Russia (and perhaps the Ukraine, though it’s hard to see how Putin could be responsible for both), I wouldn’t be surprised if this has quasi-Russian government approval (which is going to be very deniable and hard to prove). I doubt much technology gets transfered out of Russia these days without Putin having some hand for finger in the decision process. Ukraine, of course, would be a different kettle of fish, and there I’d go with just corrupt officials and/or business people trying to make a buck. Still, I think the majority of the tech transfer and assistance is from China. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/4 "2017-08-15T20:58:48Z")
Generally, year by year, the countries accused of supplying the rogue state of NK are coincidental with whomever is currently unliked. Libya, Pakistan, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Myanmar, Yemen etc… Dread Vlad has not historically been a fan of Nork Nukes and has supported UN Resolutions, the Sanctions and instituted bans on Russian weapons going over the border. Naturally this may be part of his masterful deceptiveness to baffle the innocents of the West. Or not. What is certain is that some of the North Korean newest, most up-to-date, missiles are similar to Russian state-of-the-art 1960s tech. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/5 "2017-08-15T21:21:32Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > What is certain is that some of the North Korean newest, most up-to-date, missiles are similar to Russian state-of-the-art 1960s tech. Yeah. Given that the Soviets had a practical ICBM in 1957, you’d figure that any regime that really wanted one for itself has a fairly good idea by now of what it takes to make one. As has been said about nuclear bombs, “It’s not the physics that’s hard, it’s the engineering.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/6 "2017-08-15T22:03:15Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Generally, year by year, the countries accused of supplying the rogue state of NK are coincidental with whomever is currently unliked. Libya, Pakistan, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Myanmar, Yemen etc… I’m unsure what this means. North Korea has worked with Libya, Pakistan, Iran, Syria & Myanmar on WMD. They’ve gotten financial help from Russia (under the USSR) and China. So I don’t get your point. Yes, there is trade between the nations you list and North Korea, the fact that the US doesn’t get along with most of those countries doesn’t negate it. The missiles North Korea just used are linked to a plant in the Ukraine, a part of the Ukraine that wanted to secede and join Russia. > **[North Korea’s Missile Success Is Linked to Ukrainian Plant, Investigators Say...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/world/asia/north-korea-missiles-ukraine-factory.html)** > > Investigators are focusing on the factory as a black-market source for North Korea, a new report and classified intelligence assessments say. The question is more was this a black market deal involving the plant and possibly the mafia, or does this involve the cooperation of the Russian government. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/7 "2017-08-15T22:34:46Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m unsure what this means. He’s essentially saying that in the absence of any actual evidence, all we’re doing is inferring the identity of NK’s silent partner based on our own political dynamics. We’re just rounding up the usual suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/8 "2017-08-15T23:55:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > He’s essentially saying that in the absence of any actual evidence, all we’re doing is inferring the identity of NK’s silent partner based on our own political dynamics. We’re just rounding up the usual suspects. Nonetheless, this involves the movement of weaponry that the government considers very high security, and that government is currently under Russian tutelage. Putin pretty much controls the oligarchs in Russia, why is it controversial to assume he also has a strong grip on high security military hardware? Maybe it was just workers at the factory and/or the black market and had nothing to do with Russia’s government. But if an armory in the US was selling top secret weapons to a foreign nation, it isn’t controversial to ask if the US government is involved. Getting the kind of clearance and access to get to those weapons without the government knowing or letting you isn’t easy. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/9 "2017-08-16T00:08:15Z")
The guy who is the Ukrainian equivalent of the secretary of defense implies Russia was involved in this. > **[North Korea missile claims provoked by Russia, claims Ukraine](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/841283/North-Korea-news-Ukraine-built-missile-Russia-lie-Donald-Trump-Kim-Jong-un)** > > NORTH KOREA and its apparent threats to attack Donald Trump’s United States with Ukrainian-built missiles were circulated by the Russian secret service, according to a Kiev official > [@](#): > > Kiev said the suggestion that advanced rock engines might have been sold to North Korea by corrupt staff at the Yuzhmash missile factory in Dnipro was most likely Russian propaganda > > Oleksandr Turchynov, the secretary of Ukrainian Security and Defence Council, took to Twitter to bat away any claims Kiev was involved in arming North Korea. > > He wrote: “This information is not based on any grounds, provocative by its content, and most likely provoked by Russian secret services to cover up their own crimes.” Of course they would say that to avoid responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/10 "2017-08-16T01:53:49Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Nonetheless, this involves the movement of weaponry that the government considers very high security, and that government is currently under Russian tutelage. > > Putin pretty much controls the oligarchs in Russia, why is it controversial to assume he also has a strong grip on high security military hardware? As, since I’ve pointed out he has joined in the Resolutions, Sanctions, and personal ban — he would have little to gain from proliferating nuclear missiles; particularly since the Russians are, and always have been, more terrified of nuclear war than others. They lost more people in WWII than other allies, and could not ( since 1945 ) sustain the proportional population losses compared to say, China or the USA; they would lose a nuclear exchange even if they won. Furthermore, klepto-state or not, Russia no longer has a communist ideology to inform it ( and make it a fucking boring nuisance to listen to ); it is not in their interest to arm rogue states against the West just because. The Oligarchs by now are aging mainly Jewish billionaires who want to live in Cannes, with houses in London and New York, owning football clubs and counting their loot: they are the _epitome_ of caution, with an overpowering lack of idealist philosophy: what would any of them gain by shuffling nuclear components and starting WWIII ? > [@](#): > > Maybe it was just workers at the factory and/or the black market and had nothing to do with Russia’s government. But if an armory in the US was selling top secret weapons to a foreign nation, it isn’t controversial to ask if the US government is involved. Getting the kind of clearance and access to get to those weapons without the government knowing or letting you isn’t easy. Back in Yeltsin’s day, for reasons of weakness, it _may_ have been possible for scientists ( a group of 60 of whom were halted at the airport in 1992 ) to go for a trip to any place that needed them, or for components to go AWOL from nearly abandoned Central Asian ex-Soviet Republics. Putin seems to have an adequate cork on that sort of thing. Putin is a rascal and his state is sub-optimal, but he _prefers_ boring negotiation to blowing things up in order to get his way. And giving the NK leadership capacities to start WWIII would count as reckless. Some links: \*After intensive study, Elleman, a former consultant at the Pentagon, and other specialists would report that they had detected multiple design features in the new North Korean missile engine that echo those of a 1960s-era Soviet workhorse called the RD-250. \* > **[Stuff](https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/94540036/how-north-korea-got-its-missiles)** [https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/north-koreas-military-capabilities](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/north-koreas-military-capabilities) > **[North Korea–Russia relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93Russia_relations)** > > North Korea and Russia share close military and security relations. Both nations share interest in an geopolitical alignment in challenging the West. The two states share a border along the lower Tumen River, which is 17 kilometers (11 mi) long. > The Soviet Union occupied the northern part of the Korean Peninsula after the surrender of Japan in 1945. The Soviet Union was responsible for the creation of North Korea, and installed Kim Il Sung as the new nation's leader. After the proclamation of th... > **[North Korea and weapons of mass destruction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)** > > North Korea is the tenth country to develop and most recent to openly test nuclear weapons. As of 2024\[update\], its arsenal comprises approximately 50 nuclear weapons and production of fissile material for six to seven nuclear weapons per year. North Korea is also believed to have one of the world's largest chemical weapons stockpiles. North Korea is party to the Biological Weapons Convention, one of four UN members not to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention, and the only country to anno N... ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-putins-russia-help-north-korea-get-a-working-icbm/793636/11 "2017-08-16T04:27:53Z")
FWIW, last year this same expert was positing close [cooperation](http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/25/nuclear-deal-in-place-iran-is-testing-new-missiles-and-doubling-down-in-syria/) in missile technology between North Korea and Iran.