# Did racism exist in the West before the late 15th century? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630 "2002-04-09T06:22:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/21 "2002-04-09T16:16:23Z")
See Snowdon (sp) – historian publishing through the 1980s as I recall. Has some characterizations. There are writings on the ‘burnt’ Libyans or Eithopians of Libya, meaning the dark part of North African pops. As I recall they ran the gamut of ick to interesting, with the usual dose of ethnocentrism. Sorry Sua, while I think you’ve a point, I don’t think that contact is the driver for racism --as opposed to ethnocentrism. Racism seems fairly clearly to be a byproduct --call it a polluting waste product-- of changes in thinking which lead to the Sci. Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/22 "2002-04-09T16:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > In this manner gobear missed the point on the Han: to my understanding the issue in China is as elsewhere, ethnocentrism but no fixed barriers. Assimilation to the ethnicity was possible, and no hard barriers were extent. Missed the point, my foot. **Tom** said that the Chinese had no texts rating other peoples by imagined qualities, and I showed that he was in error on this point. I was not addressing legal prohibitions on racial intermarriage. In that matter, although there were strong prejudices against intermarriage, the Chinese did not enact formal legal barriers against it. However the Qing dynasty (1644-1911)did forbid intermarriage between the Manchu ruling class and their Han subjects. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/23 "2002-04-09T16:22:08Z")
Does anyone know when the words _racist_ and _racism_ came into common usage. I don’t remember them from my youth in the 1950s. _Bigot_ was the word of choice IIRC. And _discrimination_ lost its non-pejorative sense about that time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/24 "2002-04-09T16:49:30Z")
Merriam-Webster says that _racism_ was coined/cited initially in 1936. I haven’t found a reference to when it became common. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/25 "2002-04-09T17:07:59Z")
To answer some questions about the Roman empire: (I am in a Roman history class currently, I think what I am saying is correct, but of course someone who is more knoeldgeable may come along and correct me) We don’t know what they thought about race. Why? **Because they never mention it in their writings. At all.** Severus, a Roman emperor in the Late Empire (193-211 CE), was born in Africa. His skin colour is never mentioned, but in a portrait we have of him, he is **very** dark-skinned in contrast to his wife, and does indeed have some of the facial characteristics of black people. I’d say that they had no notion of race in the way we mean. The Egyptians, as well, I would argue had no concept of race. A a certain point, the Kushites (Nubians) took over the rule, and race was never mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/26 "2002-04-09T18:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **Regarding Aaron, Miriam, and Moses, their complaint against the Cushite woman appears to be that Moses had married outside the chosen people, not that he had married into any particular “lower” group.** Biblical passages suggest that the Jews in the Mosaic period considered all other peoples to be “lower.” The first reference I can find to the Jews as a “chosen” people is [Deuteronomy chapter 7, verse 6](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=DEUT+7:6&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on): > [@](#): > > For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, **above all people that are upon the face of the earth**. (My emphasis.) So it seems the Jews of the time did not just consider themselves separate from other peoples, but above other peoples. The Ethiopians were just one of many such peoples. However, the passages from Numbers and Jeremiah make it pretty clear that they were regarded as a distinct “race.” Maybe the disagreement in this thread is a semantic one. Some folks seem to be defining “racism” to mean the use of a sliding scale to measure the relative merits of different races. If that is the definition, then racism may well be of recent coinage. However, if racism is defined to mean recognition of distinct ethnic groups combined with bigotry against those groups, then I think the cited Biblical passages indicate that racism has been with us for a while. > [@](#): > > \*\*As to the passage in Jeremiah, certainly people have long recognized that there are different colors among peoples…Jeremiah does not speak against the Cushites, only noting that they cannot change their skin color. \*\* I included the passage from Jeremiah not as a stand-alone example of racism, but to demonstrate that the ancient Jews regarded the “Ethiopians” (“Cushites” in some translations from the original Hebrew) to be an ethnically distinct people, whom the Jews classified on the basis of their physical appearance. In other words, they were a recognized “race” of people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/27 "2002-04-09T19:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Biblical passages suggest that the Jews in the Mosaic period considered all other peoples to be “lower.” Which conforms to the general observation that all groups–Chinese, Japanese, Romans, Greeks, Ibos, Navajos, Normans, Saxons, and everyone else–considered themselves to be the best of all people and, certainly, better than their neighbors. > [@](#): > > I included the passage from Jeremiah not as a stand-alone example of racism, but to demonstrate that the ancient Jews regarded the “Ethiopians” (“Cushites” in some translations from the original Hebrew) to be an ethnically distinct people, whom the Jews classified on the basis of their physical appearance. In other words, they were a recognized “race” of people. They clearly recognized that they were of a different color. When I first encountered the notion that racism (as opposed to xenophobia or the exaltation of one’s own group) might be a later development in human thought, I did not immediately accept that idea. The Greek story of Phaeton, the reference in Jeremiah that identified the Cushite by skin color, and a Roman reference that I cannot now recall that made specific reference to dark-skinned Nubians seemed to indicate that people were very much aware of “race.” However, reviewing all the places in literature where these ideas have been expressed, I noticed a particular feature: the only distinction made is that of skin color. There is no reference to the people of different colors being smarter or more stupid, no references to them being stronger or weaker, no references to them being more highly civilized or being incapable of achieving civilization within their own society. In other words, once one gets past the standard feature that “We are the best” embraced by all cultures, there is no evidence prior to the seventeenth century that any group’s _color_ is associated with any attribute other than that color. The association of physical features with characteristics other than those physical features (which would be how I would generally identify racism) is lacking prior to the earliest attempts to put _scientific_ labels on groups. * * * One further piece of evidence (that is, to my mind, strongly suggestive, but I will not offer it as proof): the word _race_ in English picked up a new meaning in that same period. Prior to the effort of Linnaeus and his followers to extend their system of categories beyond plants and animals and to set up separate categories _within_ the human species, the word _race_ was a reference to a people with a perceived or mythological common ancestor. Romans descending from Romulus, Jews descending from Abraham, Irish descending from Milesius, etc. While it identified a group, it was clear that people married into such groups and that others were adopted ino such groups. They were perceived as extended families subject to the normal modifications to familial descent. They were not considered as separate people except as they chose to hold themselves in a coherent body. After Linnaeus and company began their attempts at scientific pigeon-holing, the word _race_ was borrowed to describe the new categories that were based on physical appearance and physical location. The lack of that meaning prior to Linnaeus suggests (to me) that the concept was not one that needed to be expressed, since it did not exist. > [@](#): > > His skin colour is never mentioned, but in a portrait we have of him, he is very dark-skinned in contrast to his wife Given my position in this discussion, I would love to use this point to bolster my argument, but it should be noted that during various periods, Roman art tended to express male virility using dark skin and female beauty using pale skin. (If his facial features demonstrate a kinship with Ethiopians or Nubians, that may be significant, but I suspect that the skin tones in his portrait are less relevant.) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/28 "2002-04-09T19:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > We don’t know what they thought about race. Why? **Because they never mention it in their writings. At all.** See Snowdon. Wrote on classical perceptions. Race per se not mentioned, physical differences are, but the general impression is that they were not given the same meaning or importance. > [@](#): > > I’d say that they had no notion of race in the way we mean. Quite right. > [@](#): > > The Egyptians, as well, I would argue had no concept of race. A a certain point, the Kushites (Nubians) took over the rule, and race was never mentioned. Precisely, spoke is misreading the past statements, ethnic difference is not operative in the saem way as race. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/29 "2002-04-09T19:59:35Z")
So then **Tom** , if race was not an issue to the ancient Jews, why didn’t the writer use the generic term “gentile” to refer to the non-Jewish wife of Moses? Why did the writer state specifically that Miriam and Aaron spoke against her because she was an Ethiopian? This suggests to me that her race was a matter of some concern, and that she was not simply being scorned for her “non-Jewishness.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/30 "2002-04-09T19:59:55Z")
My comment was certainly not _that_ worthy of repetition. Please delete the second post, thanks. [Second copy of the post deleted. – MEB] ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/31 "2002-04-09T20:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*So then **Tom** , if race was not an issue to the ancient Jews, why didn’t the writer use the generic term “gentile” to refer to the non-Jewish wife of Moses? Why did the writer state specifically that Miriam and Aaron spoke against her because she was an Ethiopian? > > This suggests to me that her race was a matter of some concern, and that she was not simply being scorned for her “non-Jewishness.” \*\* I suppose the real questions are the following: (a) What precisely you mean by race in the context of the usage: that is is skin color the organizing category for viewing Ethiopians. (b) on what basis do you suppose “Ethiopian” is a race as opposed to an ethnic designation – that is difference noted of course, but skin color ascribed as the causation of that difference. © An understanding of when the texts use ethnic designations and when they do not. It may be that Ethiopians qua Ethiopians (not as the “race” of dark people) were disliked by Miriam and Aaron. There seems no in context reason to presume that Ethiopians were considered as a race in the modern meaning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/32 "2002-04-09T20:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > why didn’t the writer use the generic term “gentile” to refer to the non-Jewish wife of Moses? I dunno. Because the story is better told with concrete terms than with generic terms? If the story read “And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the gentile woman whom he had married: for he had married a gentile woman.” it would have been rather vague. On the other hand, any Israelite who heard the story would recognize that a Cushite was a gentile, but naming her country of origin makes the story more easily visualized by the audience. I can’t prove the point, but the fact that various Cushites are mentioned in different stories\* and are either praised or scorned according to their actions, not according to their origins, suggests to me that the Jews did not hold any special contempt for Cushites. (And there is still the whole problematic notion that it is not clear that the Cushites were, actually, Ethiopians. When the Cushites come against the Israelites as an army, it is as an Egyptian army, not as an Ethiopian one. I do not know why the translators of the KJV chose to translate Cush as Ethiopia, but the translation does not seem to be supportable. The inhabitants of the Upper Nile may tend to be darker than those of the Lower Nile, but, as has been pointed out, no ancient author claims that they are a different “race.”) - 2 Samuel 18 2 Kings 19 2 Chronicles 12 2 Chronicles 14 2 Chronicles 16 2 Chronicles 21 Isaiah 20 Isaiah 37 Jeremiah 13 Jeremiah 38 - 39 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/33 "2002-04-09T20:43:22Z")
The passages from Numbers and from Jeremiah, viewed together, suggest that the ancient Jews did view the “Ethiopians” (or “Cushites”) as a distinct race, with distinctive physical features. It takes a lot of spinning to ignore that, I think. The verse from Numbers implies that the Jews (or some of them, anyway) took a dim view of Ethiopians. And speaking of ancient racism, isn’t the caste system of India regarded as a vestigial relic of an ancient system of Aparteid? And aren’t the castes still at least somewhat distinguishable by the tone of their skin? (Though the differences may have been muted over the centuries…) So why this need to view racism as a recent development (relatively speaking)? Seems to me that it has always been with us, in varying forms. ---
**Author:** ![W.G.H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b77776/32.png) [@W.G.H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.G.H)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/34 "2002-04-09T21:01:59Z")
I am unsure if there was a specific time in which “scientific racism” originated, however I would not be surprised if it existed in ancient times. Regardless, the seeds of racism - human pride - have been around for some time now. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/35 "2002-04-09T21:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t prove the point, but the fact that various Cushites are mentioned in different stories\* and are either praised or scorned according to their actions, not according to their origins, suggests to me that the Jews did not hold any special contempt for Cushites. I could show you plenty of stories from American culture which depict blacks in a morally neutral light. Does that mean there is no racism in America? The story in Numbers seems to me to be a tale of ancient racism. But hey, it’s no big surprise that different people can interpret the Bible differently. > [@](#): > > And there is still the whole problematic notion that it is not clear that the Cushites were, actually, Ethiopians. I’m not sure why that is particularly problematic with respect to the discussion at hand. Whether they were from Cush or from Ethiopia, it is clear that the Jews regarded them as a physically distinctive group. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/36 "2002-04-09T21:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > The passages from Numbers and from Jeremiah, viewed together, suggest that the ancient Jews did view the “Ethiopians” (or “Cushites”) as a distinct race, with distinctive physical features. It takes a lot of spinning to ignore that, I think. You think, I rather agree with Tom. Putting two (translated) passages together out of context, above all in I note further one has to define race, what one is actually talking about. Israelites viewing dark skinned curly haired people as a single entity? > [@](#): > > The verse from Numbers implies that the Jews (or some of them, anyway) took a dim view of Ethiopians. You’re putting a whole lot on an ambiguous phrasing, in translation. To have an answer we need to see if mention of Ethiopian or Cushite occurs in a different pattern than other ethnic ex-Israelite mentions, whether there were more pejortative usages in re the same in the original Hebrew. This is not the sort of thing one can analyze by putting translated passages next to each other. > [@](#): > > And speaking of ancient racism, isn’t the caste system of India regarded as a vestigial relic of an ancient system of Aparteid? And aren’t the castes still at least somewhat distinguishable by the tone of their skin? (Though the differences may have been muted over the centuries…) Racism? I don’t know enough about the history of the caste system over time to comment much, but insofar as the caste system appears internal to the religion and is found in southern areas where skin color differences are not an issue, I’d say that on its face no. However, one would need t consult some in depth and rigorous scholarly studies on the caste system and its genesis(es). One needs to approach these things in a non-superficial manner. > [@](#): > > So why this need to view racism as a recent development (relatively speaking)? Seems to me that it has always been with us, in varying forms. Need? No need, it is intellectual rigor as opposed sloppines or superficiality. You appear to badly misunderstanding the issue, which is not whether there has been ugly in versus out group discrimination throughout history, but the nature of such discrimination. A wide literature exists on this, quite convincing and analytically rigorous --rather more so than putting two translated passages next to each other. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/37 "2002-04-09T21:33:39Z")
> [@](#): > > a distinct race, with distinctive physical features And _no other collective attributes_. No one has claimed that people were unable to recognize physical differences between groups. (I have made the point, myself, at least twice in this thread.) No one has claimed that the whole world lived in perfect harmony prior to the seventeenth century. (I have made this point, as well.) The issue regarding racism is whether there was any set of beliefs in which an entire group of people was generally described in ways that associated their _appearance_ with evaluations of their worth. In the Indian caste system, for example, it is possible to recognize some members of certain ethnic groups who are more likely to belong to specific castes in certain situations. However, there is no general categorization of caste purely by appearance. (In fact, there is evidence that people have been able to change caste at different times, through history.) No references to the Cushites in the bible describe the Cushites as having any specific qualities. Hating a group that is not one’s own (particularly when one is at war with them) hardly counts as _prima facie_ evidence of a “racial” identification. There are plenty of slurs passed around among the Germans, French, British, Spanish, and Italians, yet no one would consider their antipathy as “racial.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/38 "2002-04-09T21:43:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > I could show you plenty of stories from American culture which depict blacks in a morally neutral light. Does that mean there is no racism in America? No because one can point to clear signs of pervasive non-morally neutral feelings in re American and blacks. You have an ambiguous phrase. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why that is particularly problematic with respect to the discussion at hand. Whether they were from Cush or from Ethiopia, it is clear that the Jews regarded them as a physically distinctive group. Wonderful, that’s not the point nor has it been. The question is the extent to which phsyical difference qua physical difference was attached to having certain values, immutable ones, versus the generic “us best, you guys suck” which exists seperately from the actual physical attributes. Racism, as Tom and I have referred to it, refers not to the generic us versus them but to the particular compartmenting of prejudice and its organization along quasi-scientific grounds. Unfortunately this gets into the history of science which rather goes beyond the capacity of a board to really explicate. There are some good works on this… and I can’t think of a full cite off the top of my head. will ahve to come back for that. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/39 "2002-04-09T21:52:45Z")
**Collousbury** , the Hebrew word translated as “Ethiopian” or “Cushite” in the verse from Numbers is the same as the Hebrew word translated as “Ethiopian” or “Cushite” in the verse from Jeremiah. But not being one for “superficial” analysis, you knew that, didn’t you? Besides which, there is other evidence that the objection to the wife of Moses was based upon the color of her skin. Look at how Miriam was punished for speaking out against the woman: > [@](#): > > And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, **white as snow** : and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous. [Numbers 12:10](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=NUM+12:1-2&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on). (My emphasis.) It appears to me that God is indulging in a little ironic punishment, turning Miriam “white as snow” to punish her for speaking against the black wife of Moses. (Why else would the author use the “white as snow” imagery?) It gets harder to ignore the racial element of the story, no? But if you’re determined to ignore it, I suppose you can find a way. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630/40 "2002-04-09T21:56:12Z")
\*Originally posted by spoke- \* > [@](#): > > And speaking of ancient racism, isn’t the caste system of India regarded as a vestigial relic of an ancient system of Aparteid? And aren’t the castes still at least somewhat distinguishable by the tone of their skin? (Though the differences may have been muted over the centuries…) I’m not an expert on the history of India, so those more knowledgeable please correct as needed. My understanding is that elements of the caste system were initially based on an individuals’ occupation and was brought/introduced into Southern Asia (India) by people speaking Sanskrit (sometimes these people are refered to as “Arayans”). There’s some debate as to whether this group of people displaced the native peoples (who spoke Dravadian languages), forcing them to migrate into Central and Southern India; or whether the original inhabitants migrating into Central and Southern India prior to the arrival of the Aryans. While in general, those speaking Dravidian languages tend to be a bit darker complected than those speaking Indo-Eurpean based languages (due to their geographic location in Southern India), it is not the case that a person’s “race” can be generally discerned by the caste they belong to. There are light and dark-skinned Brahmins as well as light and dark skinned “Untouchables.” Again, the key to the caste system was a person’s (and latter the family’s) occupation. Also, there was quite a bit of assimilation that took place amongst the Indo-Eurpean/Dravidian speaking peoples. The caste system evolved cojointly along with the development and evolution of Hinduism, making the caste system a fairly rigid social hierarchy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-racism-exist-in-the-west-before-the-late-15th-century/102630.md?page=3)