# Did Ra's al Ghul die at the end of Batman Begins? \[spoilers ahoy\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 27, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204 "2008-01-27T17:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/1 "2008-01-27T17:42:57Z")
I didn’t want to hijack the [IMDB says Heath Ledger would have starred in Batman 3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=452693) thread, but in it a couple people seem to be under the impression that Ra’s survived the train crash at the end, and one even claims to see a figure jump from the train. This is totally opposite to the impression I got, and I just went over that scene on the DVD in slo-mo and didn’t see anything like a human figure. When Ra’s closes his eyes just before the train leaves the rails, to me that shows his acceptance of what’s about to happen. Of course that doesn’t mean he didn’t change his mind at the last second and try to get out, but I don’t see it. So, what say you? Did Ra’s survive? And if anyone does think they saw a figure escape from the train, exactly where do you see that? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/2 "2008-01-27T17:48:07Z")
I don’t know, but Ra’s is a difficult man to keep dead. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/3 "2008-01-27T18:04:38Z")
They didn’t show his dead body so he can be either dead or alive depending on what the directors need. If Heath Ledger/The Joker were meant to be a recurring villain then yeah he was probably supposed to be dead. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/4 "2008-01-27T18:07:59Z")
Well, real life physics says that the eventual sudden change in momentum, whether or not he managed to leap free, would have at least broken a couple of bones and bruised some internal organs. Movie physics, of course, says differently. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/5 "2008-01-27T18:13:13Z")
[QUOTE=dotchan] Well, real life physics says that the eventual sudden change in momentum, whether or not he managed to leap free, would have at least broken a couple of bones and bruised some internal organs. Movie physics, of course, says differently. 😃 [/QUOTE] And comic book physics laughs uproariously at the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/6 "2008-01-27T18:28:01Z")
In the comics, at least, Ra’s has come back from much worse things than a train crash. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/7 "2008-01-27T20:19:58Z")
Supervillains in the comics almost always survive certain death, escape incarceration, etc when the writers need them to be alive. The BATMAN movie tradition is that the villain seems to be killed at the end of each movie, but … the resurrection tradition goes back to at least Sherlock Holmes at the Reichenbach Falls, c. 1903. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/8 "2008-01-27T21:33:32Z")
The guy has already resurrected himself at least once in the comic books, so I don’t see why he couldn’t do it again. When Ra’s closed his eyes just before the train plummeted, I always assumed that he was doing the soul transfer thing. I didn’t see him leap from the train, but in [The Resurrection of Ra’s al Ghul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Resurrection_of_Ra's_al_Ghul) he was walking around as an animated corpse, so I don’t think a train accident is going to take him out. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/9 "2008-01-27T22:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] When Ra’s closed his eyes just before the train plummeted, I always assumed that he was doing the soul transfer thing. [/QUOTE] Okay, that’s a trick I didn’t know Ra’s had. Is that something I missed from the movie, or the comics? (I’ve never read many funny books that featured Ra’s, so my familiarity with him is limited.) ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/10 "2008-01-27T22:05:35Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] The guy has already resurrected himself at least once in the comic books, so I don’t see why he couldn’t do it again. [/QUOTE] While it’s not usually as spectacular and evil as jumping bodies (which he did three times in Resurrection), resurrection is his ‘thing’ - the Lazarus Pits can, and have, been used to bring him (and other characters - Batgirl, Lady Shiva, Isis (albeit, briefly)) back to life. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/11 "2008-01-27T22:12:33Z")
I remember seeing a human figure jumping from the train before it crashed - not on my first viewing, but while watching again later. So I think he lived. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/12 "2008-01-27T22:13:21Z")
[QUOTE=FlyingDragonFan] Okay, that’s a trick I didn’t know Ra’s had. Is that something I missed from the movie, or the comics? (I’ve never read many funny books that featured Ra’s, so my familiarity with him is limited.) [/QUOTE] It was first used, I think, in the Batman Beyond TV series, where he stole his daughter Talia’s body. Resurrection is the first time it’s been used in the comics. (Unless he soul-jumped into his clones in the Legion of Superheroes stories he was in… I can’t remember, offhand.) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/13 "2008-01-27T22:34:31Z")
I think it’s at about 6:34 in [this vid](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Jdc_fv2I) Jumping from the top off the far side of the train. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/14 "2008-01-27T22:36:29Z")
The Lazarus pits I know vaguely about, and how they allowed Ra’s to be essentially immortal, or at least long-lived. But the impression I got from the movie characterization was that he was much more … mundane, I guess, is the word. His conversation with Bruce at the party, about how seeming immortality being just “parlor tricks” in Bruce’s words, made it seem like the movie was going for a more grounded approach to the characters. The magical Lazarus pits, or soul transferring, don’t seem to mesh with that to me. Just my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/15 "2008-01-27T23:02:40Z")
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive] I think it’s at about 6:34 in [this vid](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Jdc_fv2I) Jumping from the top off the far side of the train. [/QUOTE] I see lots of train parts falling off there, but nothing that looks like a man. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/16 "2008-01-28T00:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=FlyingDragonFan] Okay, that’s a trick I didn’t know Ra’s had. Is that something I missed from the movie, or the comics? (I’ve never read many funny books that featured Ra’s, so my familiarity with him is limited.) [/QUOTE] “Funny books?” Them’s fightin’ words around here, pilgrim… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/17 "2008-01-28T00:25:47Z")
There is a shadowy “thing” just over the top of the train at the back end where Batman blew it out. It could be a man in a coat like Ra’s was wearing. It also might not be. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/18 "2008-01-28T00:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] There is a shadowy “thing” just over the top of the train at the back end where Batman blew it out. It could be a man in a coat like Ra’s was wearing. It also might not be. [/QUOTE] I heard that it was a Munchkin committing suicide. Or the dead child of the couple that owned the apartment where the movie was shot. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/19 "2008-01-28T05:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=flurb] I heard that it was a Munchkin committing suicide. Or the dead child of the couple that owned the apartment where the movie was shot. [/QUOTE] No, someone left a Ted Danson standup on the train. ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204/20 "2008-01-28T15:23:16Z")
I heard about this, so when we watched the movie Saturday night we stopped and replayed this scene about a dozen times. There is something leaving the top of the train car, just before it enters the parking garage: it looked vaguely like a man wearing a large overcoat for about three frames, but when viewed in motion it was clearly a piece of sheet metal peeling away from the skin of the train car. If there was anything else that looked like an Irish goatee’d Jedi ninja supervillain leaping to safety, we missed it. In all fairness, such scenes are usually filmed during production of the sequel. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ras-al-ghul-die-at-the-end-of-batman-begins-spoilers-ahoy/435204.md?page=2)