# Did Reagan-Bush delay the release of the hostages in Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2001, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895 "2001-06-23T18:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/21 "2001-06-24T16:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > The very term “October Surprise” was INVENTED by Reagan aides, and referred to the possibility they feared most: that Jimmy Carter would find SOME way, ANY way, to free the hostages in late October, just in time to get a big bounce in the polls and win re-election. > > They had good reason to fear Carter would pull such a stunt. After all, Carter had pulled one stunt after another while fighting off Ted Kennedy in the primaries. Whenever it appeared that Ted Kennedy was going to win a state, word would leak from the WHite House that the hostages were about to be released… Carter would win the primary… and… SURPRISE! The hostages stayed in Iran. Wow … the capacity of certain individuals to think that their “opponents” could not possibly be capable of doing anything for reasons that aren’t astoundingly cynical is in itself astoundingly cynical. Yep, it would certainly be in character for ol’ Deacon Jimmy to arrange secretly for the hostages to stay in Iran just so he could win a primary or two. That’s just like all the other Machiavellian crap he pulled throughout his term and even after, right? After all, he’s a Democrat and therefore totally unprincipled. 😃 Puh-leeze. That’s like hearing a co-worker seriously claiming Reagan to be a great hero for his work in getting the hostages released even before he finished his inaugural speech. It had never occurred to him that Khomeini might have just been yanking The Great Satan Carter’s chain one last time. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/22 "2001-06-24T16:21:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*May the bastard fry in H-E-Double Toohpicks. He richly earned the brain rot he so deservedly suffers from today. \*\* I was never a fan of Reagan, but the above is **mean-spirited and unnecessarily foul.** ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/23 "2001-06-24T17:04:07Z")
The timing always did strike me as suspect. Has anyone seen a newsprogram or article about this subject? Patty ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/24 "2001-06-24T17:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > **I was never a fan of Reagan, but the above is mean-spirited and unnecessarily foul.** Well, I could debate _that._ I remember when Nixon died, and I was at a party, and we were are rather pleased. And then one literary agent, a dignified elderly gent with wavy silver hair, spoke up…“Dead isn’t good enough…I wanted the fucker to GO BLIND first!” Took me aback, at first. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/25 "2001-06-24T19:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marvel \* > **The timing always did strike me as suspect. Has anyone seen a newsprogram or article about this subject?** So, what, am I invisible here? The link I posted above spells out why the hostages were released when they were, and shows that there was nothing moe involved than last-minute negotiating by Carter, not Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/26 "2001-06-24T19:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marvel \* > \*\*The timing always did strike me as suspect. Has anyone seen a newsprogram or article about this subject? > \*\* I posted several links above, including one senate document on whether to hold hearings. ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/27 "2001-06-24T20:53:59Z")
Sorry Darwin’s Finch and DMC, I posted before I read all of the other posts. Patty ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/28 "2001-06-24T22:22:31Z")
Elvis… You’re an ignorant slut. ``` I NEVER suggested that Jimmy Carter wanted to keep hostages in Iran. On the contrary, Carter tried HARD, in every way possible, to free the hostages. Fact remains, he failed miserably every time out. My contention is merely this: he was VERY happy to use the hostages as a re-election tool. Though Carter NEVER came close to releasing the hostages, he was constantly dropping hints that their release was imminent- and he USUALLY dropped these hints at politically useful moments. As I noted earlier, every time Ted Kennedy was about to whup Carter's sorry butt, you could be sure that there'd be a press release indicating that the crisis was over. For a day, there'd be a bounce for Carter in the polls, just long enough for him to win the primary. Next day, of course, it would become clear that the hostages were NOT about to be freed, and that Carter had made NO progress with Iran. Ted Kennedy would fume, but it didn't matter! Carter had fooled the voters, and had staved off Kennedy for another day. ``` Since Carter had proven that he was quite willing to manipulate the hostage crisis for his own purposes, it’s nt surprising that Reagan and his advisors feared a last-minute stunt of some sort to spring the hostages right before the election. When Reagan’s team spoke of an “October Surprise,” THAT’S what they referred to. Not a plan of theirs, but a plan they suspected Carter might resort to. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/29 "2001-06-24T23:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > **…Can anyone give even one piece of evidence to support this?** Not evidence, but a sufficient number of coincidences that even Gary Sick’s critics have to admit there may some substance to his [allegations](http://wjcohen.home.mindspring.com/sick.htm). An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Sick makes a compelling prima facie case for the charges of a secret deal. Terrified that a pre-November hostage release would tip the election in Carter’s favor, members of the Reagan campaign staff penetrated the deepest levels of the government to monitor Carter’s handling of the crisis, “an achievement,” in Sick’s phrase, “that would have been the envy of the KGB” (p.138). Some of the more egregious examples of Reaganite scheming include: around-the-clock surveillance of US Air Force bases where Iranian weaponry purchased under the Shah was interned; knowledge of the transcripts of meetings of a handful of top government and military officials planning a never-executed second rescue; and the theft of Carter’s foreign policy briefing book. These ethical breaches were so grave that both the FBI and a Senate subcommittee investigated the leaks of classified information after the end of the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/30 "2001-06-24T23:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > > \*\*May the bastard fry in H-E-Double Toohpicks. He richly earned the brain rot he so deservedly suffers from today. \*\* > > I was never a fan of Reagan, but the above is **mean-spirited and unnecessarily foul.** \*\* Feel free to call me meanspirited and unnecessarily foul, I’ll wear your accusation as a badge of honor. Reagan was, pehaps, surpassed only by Nixon himself for cynical politics at its best. Reagan’s Hollywood posturing and PR driven platform washed out a portion of backbone from American politics that has yet to be replaced to this day. One question: Why did the shuttle have to launch on a freezing (Innauguration) day, against the protests of all the flight engineers responsible for the liftoff? May Ronald Reagan rot slowly and eternally. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/31 "2001-06-25T01:25:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > **Elvis… > You’re an ignorant slut.** That’s a very convincing argument. At least, it does convince me of _something_. Care to discuss the debate topic instead? > [@](#): > > ``` > I NEVER suggested that Jimmy Carter wanted to keep hostages in Iran. > > ``` Sorry, pal, that is indeed the implication behind your contention that he was willing to manipulate the campaign on that basis. > [@](#): > > As I noted earlier, every time Ted Kennedy was about to whup Carter’s sorry butt, you could be sure that there’d be a press release indicating that the crisis was over. Bearing in mind that there was ALWAYS a primary coming up in no more than 2 weeks, over a period of several months, in how many of them was Kennedy was even within striking distance before such an announcement? Can you provide any substantiation that would prevent that allegation from being as dismissable as the statement with which you started that post? > [@](#): > > Since Carter had proven that he was quite willing to manipulate the hostage crisis for his own purposes, it’s nt surprising that Reagan and his advisors feared a last-minute stunt of some sort to spring the hostages right before the election. Actually succeeding in the task you earlier claimed Carter was desperately trying would have been a “stunt” if it had happened in October? Have you really thought this through? If there were even a minimal pattern of conduct in other situations that you could point to that would suggest Carter to be the cynical schemer you think, there just might be a hint of credibility to your allegation. I’m not aware of any, other than his being a Democrat - but for some people, that seems to be an indictment in itself. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/32 "2001-06-25T21:56:01Z")
Heck, even Reagan’s daughter thought so. That would be Patty… ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/33 "2001-06-26T05:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If there were even a minimal pattern of conduct in other situations that you could point to that would suggest Carter to be the cynical schemer you think, there just might be a hint of credibility to your allegation. I’m not aware of any, other than his being a Democrat - but for some people, that seems to be an indictment in itself. He wasn’t claiming that Carter would delay the hostage release, only that the Reagan campaign had reason at the time to fear it, and thus monitored the progress of the situation. Personally, I wouldn’t see it as a huge step from risking American lives on the stupid and overly complex plan that failed at Desert One. Of course, it’s clear now that Carter was trying as hard as he could to get the hostages released, even after he had lost, but Reagan’s team was apparently unconvinced at the time. > [@](#): > > One question: Why did the shuttle have to launch on a freezing (Innauguration) day, against the protests of all the flight engineers responsible for the liftoff? If you are trying to claim that Reagan was responsible, please present evidence that he had any involvement. Insinuating things without evidence is generally frowned on around here. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/34 "2001-06-26T20:25:20Z")
Nobody disputes that (future National Security Advisor) Richard Allen, (also future National Security Advisor) “Bud” MaFarlane, and (future federal Appeals Court Judge) Lawrence Silberman met with “an Iranian official” on October 2, 1980 at the L’Enfant Plaza Hotel. At least, none of those three named individuals dispute it. None of the three individuals can agree on who they met with or what was discussed. No notes survive from the meeting. [cite 1](http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0591/9105011.htm) [cite 2](http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1991_cr/h911104-october2.htm) (Superfluous jab: “Bud” McFarlane’s curious memory lapses also cropped up in relation to his deep involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, his suicide attempt upon exposure, and his testimony afterward.) There are “dozens” of eyewitnesses and participants who claim that a series of meetings between Republican officials occured in Paris between October 15 and October 20, 1980. While two or three eyewitnesses claim that George Bush was seen there, it is generally agreed that this is a red herring. There is plenty of evidence to show that Bush was in Washington and Connecticut during those dates. Bush’s near-proven absence from the alleged Paris meetings is often disingenuously held up as proof that the entire thing never happened. That argument continues to ignore the dozens of people who claim that it did. I have yet to see anyone explain away the far greater number of witnesses who claim that (future CIA Director) William Casey was present at those alleged meetings. The Free Republic article cited above artfully dodges the issue by citing a number of appointments that Casey had on the 20th, but offers nothing about his whereabouts prior to that date. Richard Allen, the gentleman who has trouble remembering exactly what he was doing in a hotel room with an Iranian man three weeks previously, has no trouble recalling that Casey called him in DC at 7:30 am on the 20th, and carefully notes that it was a local call. How, exactly, he knows it was a local call in the days before caller I.D. is unexplained. In addition to the supposed Paris meetings, Casey is also alleged to have met with two Iranian arms dealers in Madrid, Spain in late July, 1980. The Free Republic article above triumphantly notes that while the arms dealers’ aliases appear on the register of the hotel in which they claim to have met, along with the exact name of one of Casey’s aides, Robert Gray, Casey himself was all of ninety minutes away by plane at a conference in London, where he was delivering a paper on OSS activities in France in World War II. (Gray fully acquitted himself in the eyes of the Free Republic by showing that his passport was not stamped. Despite my illusions to the contrary, I guess I was home during the holidays in 1999. After all, my passport isn’t stamped, either.) [cite 2, again](http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0591/9105011.htm) The argument keeps coming down to this: people who have been accused, and proven, of dealing with Iranians, setting up elaborate illegal arms operations, and lying under oath claim that this incident _didn’t_ happen, and they attempt to discredit those who claim it did by showing that those individuals were running elaborate illegal arms operations and lying. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to prove anything when the people you’re dealing with are willing to prevaricate, feign no recollection, and destroy evidence, all hallmarks of the much better documented and undisputed Iran-Contra affair. One of the reasons why Iran-Contra was proven beyond doubt was because those jokers involved were government officials and therefore under close scrutiny. In 1980 those same people were under no such restrictions. Whatever can be plausibly denied about the October Suprise, the character of the individuals alleged to be involved cannot: they (i.e. Casey and McFarlane) have already proven themselves to be fully capable of doing such things. But because everyone involved is untrustworthy to some extent, it forces the accusers into a “prove you didn’t do it” stance, a far shakier position than being able to make them admit that they did. The Reagan Republicans wouldn’t have it any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/35 "2001-06-26T21:17:58Z")
**astorian** : > [@](#): > > You’re an ignorant slut. [Moderator Hat ON] Do not post insults in this forum, astorian. You’ve certainly been around long enough to know that rule. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/36 "2001-06-26T22:52:04Z")
**Gaudy:** I think **astorian** was making a humorous jest in utilizing a 1970s-period insult (see Dan Ackroyd in _Saturday Night Live_) in a thread about a late 1970s political issue. In other words, I don’t think he was really calling **Elvis** an ignorant slut; merely attempting to infuse the thread with the proper period ambiance. He may have also been wearing platform shoes while posting. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/37 "2001-06-26T23:25:39Z")
[This cogent plea on the part of **Ukelele Ike** is brought to you by **Colonel Lingus’ Fried Chicken**. It’s finger lickin’ good!] ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/38 "2001-06-27T03:40:06Z")
Uke: I was aware of the reference, but that does not negate the potential for insult. Given the context (a rather acrimonious debate) and the reaction of the recipient (Elvisl1ves), I judged that it was both intended as an insult and recieved as one. That something was once a buzzphrase does not erase the potential for insult. For example, should “you stupid cocksucker” become a catchphrase today, that does not mean one can use it with absolute impunity 30 years later, and I saw little in astorian’s post to hint that the comment was not genuinely insulting and indeed intended to be so. I cannot accept without qualification that just because an insult was trendy and cute 30 years ago that NO insult can possibly intended now, particuarly when the poster of said insult seems to be angry and thus inclined to insult. Besides, it’s “Jane, you ignorant slut” not “you’re an ignorant slut”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/39 "2001-06-27T12:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > He wasn’t claiming that Carter would delay the hostage release, only that the Reagan campaign had reason at the time to fear it, and thus monitored the progress of the situation. **Waterj** , you pompous swine-ass 😃 (Everyone happy now? Funny how only one half of the SNL exchange is remembered.) OK, a closer parsing of the post in question allows the interpretation that **Astorian** was only discussing the Reagan campaign’s beliefs at the time, not his own at the present (although he used the word “fact” in the other active Carter thread). In the interest of peace, love, and understanding, I’ll withdraw the comment and hope for **Astorian** to confirm that he does not now believe what he claims Reagan believed then. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895/40 "2001-06-27T13:36:06Z")
OK, fine, you two. You’re just trying to make my job difficult, aren’t you? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-reagan-bush-delay-the-release-of-the-hostages-in-iran/69895.md?page=3)