# Did Roberts flip his vote at the 11th hour? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624 "2012-06-28T19:52:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/21 "2012-06-30T21:16:01Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > It is this in particular that feels so utterly bizarre from this side of the Atlantic. Over here the idea of conservative, labour or lib dem judges is utterly alien. Technically (ideally), over here, once you get on the bench, your party affiliation ceases to matter; you rule on the merits and the law, and nothing more. Certainly, even in places where judges are elected, you don’t know the affiliation of 99% of the people you’d face in the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/22 "2012-06-30T21:32:57Z")
From the first link in the OP: > [@](#): > > Language like this is highly suggestive of a majority opinion. The reference to the dissent and “we” strongly suggests that the “we” was a majority of the Court. This suggests that Justice Roberts switched his vote. There are other conceiveable explanations, but in my opinion, this evidence is very strong indeed. To me, using “we” suggests two or more people, unless it is the “royal we”, which suggests one. Why would it necessarily suggest a majority? 😕 Seems to me that the blogger is trying his best to gin up a conspiracy, but with nothing real to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/23 "2012-06-30T22:01:03Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > As an aside, from far away it feels very odd that judges could or would be so politically partisan - so _party_ political. It’s not even their job before they do this job, how come they suddenly get to affect the direction of a nation via their own political prejudices when their whole career has apparently been based on making rulings based on the weight of legal argument and only the weight of legal argument … It seems really very weird and inappropriate. But how do you know, or why do you think, that they are basing their opinions strictly on partisan grounds and not based on the “weight of legal argument.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/24 "2012-06-30T22:05:16Z")
Since 2005, judges in the UK have been appointed by an independent commission. Anyway, the UK and most parliamentary democracies don’t have judicial review as we know it (though EUCHR can override Acts of Parliament.) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/25 "2012-06-30T22:11:02Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Technically (ideally), over here, once you get on the bench, your party affiliation ceases to matter; you rule on the merits and the law, and nothing more. Certainly, even in places where judges are elected, you don’t know the affiliation of 99% of the people you’d face in the courtroom. Perhaps but the very fact that the supreme court seems to be spoken of as “conservatives” and “liberals” is bizarre. Then again, I don’t know how much of this is because your supreme court seems to be more important than ours (which has only been called a supreme court for around 5 years anyway!) due to your more questionable laws. I can name the head judge of our supreme court, and I know there’s one woman on it. And that’s more than 99% of brits could do. Where as it seems to me that every reasonably informed American knows who’s on the SCOTUS and how they think. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/26 "2012-06-30T22:11:23Z")
Apparently now some conservative pundits are saying Roberts flipped his vote because he is on epilepsy medication (you just can’t make this shit up): > [@](#): > > **Conservatives Claim Roberts Upheld Obamacare Because Of ‘Cognitive Problems’ Due To Epilepsy Medication** > > On his radio show yesterday, right-wing host Michael Savage — who has previously called autism a “phony disease” — claimed that Roberts’ epilepsy is the root cause of his “cognitive dissociation” in the Obamacare ruling: > > SOURCE: [http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/29/508761/conservatives-claim-roberts-upheld-obamacare-because-of-cognitive-problems-due-to-his-epilepsy-medicine/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/29/508761/conservatives-claim-roberts-upheld-obamacare-because-of-cognitive-problems-due-to-his-epilepsy-medicine/) ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/27 "2012-06-30T22:23:26Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Where as it seems to me that every reasonably informed American knows who’s on the SCOTUS and how they think. Not even close. There are plenty of reasonably informed Americans who probably couldn’t even point out ANY of the supreme court justices in a line-up, or name them. They are, by far, the most oft-forgotten branch of our government, and as you pointed out in your post, incredibly powerful in that they determine constitutionality of laws. I would be incredibly surprised if even 1% of Americans could name all 9 of the supreme court justices off the top of their head, or match their names to their faces, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/28 "2012-06-30T22:24:23Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Then again, I don’t know how much of this is because your supreme court seems to be more important than ours (which has only been called a supreme court for around 5 years anyway!) due to your more questionable laws. > > \ > > …it seems to me that every reasonably informed American knows who’s on the SCOTUS and how they think. It’s got nothing to do with our “questionable laws”. It’s because our judiciary has the power to strike down laws which conflict with our foundational laws, and yours doesn’t. Your perception is badly skewed by spending time here. Most Americans [couldn’t name a single Supreme Court justice](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/03/two-thirds-of-americans-c_n_599058.html) (other than Roberts, and only because he’s been all over the news this week.) I’m not sure what your definition of “reasonably informed” Americans is, but I presume it’s more than a third of the country. Hell, I’m a law student and I couldn’t name all nine if put on the spot (I got 8, and then couldn’t remember if it was Breyer or Stevens who retired when I polled myself just now). ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/29 "2012-07-01T00:47:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, lets see here. I could pretend I know what you are talking about, and nod my head knowingly, with a chin stroke. Or reveal myself as a legal ignoramus and say “Huh?” > > OK, made up my mind. > > Huh? I am not a lawyer, but I think in legal terminology an “opinion” refers to the majority’s written opinion(s), while “dissent” refers to the minority’s written disagreement(s) with the majority. Still confusing, isn’t it? That’s because lawyers specialize in ridiculous, confusing language, but don’t get me started on that. Anyway, the point is that if Thomas used the phrase “joint opinion” in an early draft that could be interperted as meaning that when the draft was composed a majority of the justices, including Roberts, favored overturning Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/30 "2012-07-01T00:58:19Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > He certainly got a place in US history books all to himself. From what I understand of all this, I think Roberts showed himself to be an _extremely_ clever man, both tactically and strategically. Remember that he may be Chief Justice for another 20 years or more. Put it this way–in the broader scheme of things, the actual issues of the Obamacare case will be about as prominent as the question of whether a certain DC Justice of the Peace actually gets his commission delivered on time. A hundred years from now, no one will know what “Obamacare” was, and Obama himself will be a trivia question (along with Scalia, Thomas and the rest of the gang). But they will remember Chief Justice John G. Roberts. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/31 "2012-07-01T01:01:38Z")
Bricker - what are your thoughts here? ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/32 "2012-07-01T01:02:19Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Perhaps but the very fact that the supreme court seems to be spoken of as “conservatives” and “liberals” is bizarre… Been that way at least since the 1930s, and is not going to change in the forseeable future. Republican appointees have had a way of disappointing conservative voters, though. Earl Warren is the most conspicuous example, and Warren Burger, a Nixon appointee, would have none of Nixon’s legal shenanigans during the Watergate crisis. > [@Confused dart cum](#): > > …I can name the head judge of our supreme court, and I know there’s one woman on it. Two women: Ruth Bader Ginsberg and an Obama appointee whose Latin name I am embarassed to say escapes me. > [@Confused dart cum](#): > > …Where as it seems to me that every reasonably informed American knows who’s on the SCOTUS and how they think. I agree, and will make an effort to remedy my failing. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/33 "2012-07-01T01:13:20Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Two women: Ruth Bader Ginsberg and an Obama appointee whose > Latin name I am embarassed to say escapes me. It seem to me that **Confused dart cum** is talking about the UK Supreme Court, as s/he says later “And that’s more than 99% of brits could do.” And the justice you can’t remember is Elena Kagan. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/34 "2012-07-01T01:19:35Z")
Ah, yes, the wise Latina. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/35 "2012-07-01T01:24:22Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Ah, yes, the wise Latina. Ah, I was wondering what the hell was meant by “Latin name.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/36 "2012-07-01T01:39:25Z")
Uh… unless I’m being whooshed, perhaps **colonial** meant Sonia Sotomayor? President Obama has had two appointments to the court, both of them women. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/37 "2012-07-01T02:39:40Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > …my failing. Well, I misread another member’s post, and I forgot there are now _three_ female US Supreme Court Justices. I hope that is all the mistakes that need catching. I promise to read net bios of all sitting justices next week. There are still nine of them, aren’t there? I’m not going to own up to “Latin name” being a mistake, though. “Latin” is a standard word for “Latin American”, and does not strike me as all that obscure. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/38 "2012-07-01T05:35:37Z")
I tend to go with the opinion that this is just another in a long line of Roberts pro-corporate decisions. The ACA IS a huge gift to big insurance companies, the very briar patch they would most dearly love to be thrown in. No more complex rule needs to be invoked. It was Roberts being Roberts. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/39 "2012-07-01T08:10:00Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Really? > > Not to single you out—you’re not even the only person here to have said something like this. Over at 4chan there’s plenty of people going on about what a landmark case this is. I’d imagine it’s like this everywhere, but sdmb and 4chan eat up too much of my time. > > I’m reading through the case and I have to admit I have yet to find anything earth-shattering. What about this case will radically alter the future of jurisprudence? Question open to all. I know it feels all big n’ stuff because of the current political atmosphere but that makes _the bill signed into law_ a huge deal, not _this court case_. FWIW, [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/opinion/in-health-care-ruling-a-pyrrhic-victory.html?_r=2&hp) from the New York Times opines that the most important effects of the bill are 1) A hit to the power of the federal government’s ability to force states to take certain actions through pursestrings, and 2) showing the SCOTUS’ willingness to rewrite legislation instead of simply ruling it constitutional or not. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624/40 "2012-07-01T14:20:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Uh.. unless I’m being whooshed, perhaps **colonial** meant Sonia Sotomayor? President Obama has had two appointments to the court, both of them women. :smack: Yes, I suppose it would more likely be Sotomayor being referred to there, not Kagan. So three women justices on the Supreme court. > [@colonial](#): > > I’m not going to own up to “Latin name” being a mistake, though. “Latin” is a standard word for “Latin American”, > and does not strike me as all that obscure. Honestly, I’ve never heard that term to refer to a person of Latin American decent. I’ve heard “Latino” and “Latina” but not “Latin” on its own in that context. Could just be a dialect difference. I sincerely had no idea what you meant by “Latin name.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roberts-flip-his-vote-at-the-11th-hour/626624.md?page=3)