# Did Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle Murder Virginia Rappe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904 "2001-04-22T20:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/1 "2001-04-22T20:54:51Z")
Ahh, the rarity. A planned debate amongst Dopers. Since this is my one thousandth Posting here, I’ll throw down the glove and let the Debate begin. I hereby assert that Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle did NOT murder Virgina Rappe. She attended a party given in his hotel suite, and died after. She became ill at the party because of a PRE-EXISTING condition. Additionally, I feel that Fatty Arbuckle bears NO responsibility for her death because of negligence. Not only did he NOT wait three days before summoning a medical doctor, he had one brought in TO THE SUITE IMMEDIATELY. Exhaustive facts to follow, as needed. Anyone think that this sickening Urban Legend is still true? I’m hurling the glove and inviting all comers. ( Especially my dear and respected fellow cinephile, **Eve** ). ( Momentary aside. This is 1,000 posts in a community where quality beats the hell out of quantity. I’d like to think most were of reasonable quality, even the wise-assed ones. The pleasure gained from both the frivilous posts and the well-researched and vigorously defended ones is immeasurable. I love The Straight Dope. So there 😛 ) Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2001, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/2 "2001-04-22T21:10:53Z")
I’ve just asked the Mods to fix the title of this thread. I used quotation marks, and didn’t realize this would create a problem. It should be titled, **DID ROSCOE “FATTY” ARBUCKLE MURDER VIRGINIA RAPPE??** ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2001, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/3 "2001-04-22T21:11:58Z")
And perhaps a mod could change the thread title to Did Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle kill Virginia Rappe? Apparently Cartooniverse previewed before submitting, triggering that little bug with quotation marks in thread titles. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/4 "2001-04-23T00:09:42Z")
Damn, a minute late and a dollar short, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/5 "2001-04-23T00:28:33Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Fixed title. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/6 "2001-04-23T00:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\*I hereby assert that Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle did NOT murder Virgina Rappe. She attended a party given in his hotel suite, and died after. She became ill at the party because of a PRE-EXISTING condition. > > [snippage] > > Exhaustive facts to follow, as needed. Anyone think that this sickening Urban Legend is still true?\*\* From everything I’ve seen on the case (admittedly very little) this seems to be the most likely, and accepted situation. The further theory that the case was sensationalised as part of an anti-Hollywood campaign also rings true to me, if only for the ‘more things change…’ aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/7 "2001-04-23T01:07:17Z")
No, he didn’t. I mean it, he really didn’t. According to a book by Andy Edmonds entitled _Frame-Up,_ Roscoe Arbuckle did indeed have physical contact with Vriginia Rappe, but it wasn’t sexual, and it wasn’t intentional. She was trying to tickle him, and his knee flexed up convulsively, catching her in the stomach area. Now, she was pretty physically messed up on the inside–she’d had several abortions, and some sort of sexually transmitted disease (which one is escaping me at the moment). IIRC, she’d just had another abortion just days before the incident with Arbuckle. But the physical contact with Rappe had to be denied. If Arbuckle was going to have anything resembling a career after this, he had to be totally exonerated. If he’d 'fessed up to the knee thing, he’d probably have gotten popped for involuntary manslaughter, or something like that. While he might not have ever done jail time, he’d still have a conviction hanging on him. Of course, he got screwed out of his career anyway, and it sucks. He was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing, and an apology was publicly issued by the judge at his _third_ trial (the first two ending in hung juries). I’d suggest reading Andy Edmonds’ book. Besides going in to tremendous detail regarding the whole Rappe affair, she does a lot of in-depth research about Arbuckle’s life and career. But if Eve ever chooses to write a book about it, I’ll be checking the flight schedules to my nearest bookstore… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/8 "2001-04-23T12:57:02Z")
Now, don’t everybody jump in all at once . . . We still have the William Desmond Taylor murder to hash out! OK, everyone knows by now that Arbuckle was not directly responsible for Rappe’s death—I have seen an investigation that pretty much proved that she died of a ruptured bladder, due to an untreated urinary tract infection. But she should have been gotten to a hospital immediately. Everyone was so afraid of it getting into the newspapers (there was illegal booze, among other things, at the party), that Rappe was left to linger painfully in a hotel room for three days, with only a “hotel doctor” of questionable references to care for her. So, I would say that everyone in charge—the doctor, the hotel, the partygivers—were guilty of negligent manslaughter. What really annoys me is how—in order to make Arbuckle seem “less guilty”—his friends and the press (not at the time, but in the years since) ganged up on Virginia rappe, and she has been painted as a no-talent slut who got what she deserved. She was actually a respected starlet who had garnered very favorable reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/9 "2001-04-23T20:29:56Z")
Crikey ! What kinda debate can we have when I agree with **Eve**??? Here I was all prepped for war. War ! Yeah, she was sort of shoved off on the House Dr. at the St. Francis Hotel, one Dr. Arthur Beardslee. He was not, however, the first Dr. to examine her. At 4:45pm on the day of the party, she was seen by a Dr. Olav Kaarboe. He examined her physically and conducted an initial interview as well. She was able to respond, albeit a bit fuzzily. At 7:10 p.m. that same day, Dr. Beardslee saw her for the first time as a patient. At that time, unlike 3 hours earlier, she did complain of stomache pain, and held her stomache. She showed signs of pain when palpated in the abdominal quarters. When asked by the Dr., Virginia said that Roscoe neither had intercourse with her, nor attacked her in any way. Here is the crime. Under oath, and I doth quote from his direct testimony, Dr. Beardslee said the following: > [@](#): > > I knew I was dealing with a surgical abdomen. It was self-evident. It was an abdomen which would require surgical interference. An operative case . Now…this…this idiot then left her. He did not ask that she be hospitalized. He did not prescribe painkillers. he left. At 8:45 that night, he returned to look at her again- still as she lay asleep in Suite 1227. He saw her a total of four times, and yet never had her admitted to a hospital. In today’s terms, he was guilty (IMHO) of gross negligence and abandonment of a patient. After the fourth visit, he was replaced by a Dr. Melville Rumwell, and so was no longer legally her Dr. It was too late at that point. He blew it. But, **Fatty Arbuckle** wasn’t responsible for that Dr.'s negligence. And, since I’m not afraid to admit total ignorance here, WHO is William Desmond Taylor??? Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/10 "2001-04-23T20:35:00Z")
Crikey ! What kinda debate can we have when I agree with **Eve**??? Here I was all prepped for war. War ! Yeah, she was sort of shoved off on the House Dr. at the St. Francis Hotel, one Dr. Arthur Beardslee. He was not, however, the first Dr. to examine her. At 4:45pm on the day of the party, she was seen by a Dr. Olav Kaarboe. He examined her physically and conducted an initial interview as well. She was able to respond, albeit a bit fuzzily. At 7:10 p.m. that same day, Dr. Beardslee saw her for the first time as a patient. At that time, unlike 3 hours earlier, she did complain of stomache pain, and held her stomache. She showed signs of pain when palpated in the abdominal quarters. When asked by the Dr., Virginia said that Roscoe neither had intercourse with her, nor attacked her in any way. Here is the crime. Under oath, and I doth quote from his direct testimony, Dr. Beardslee said the following: > [@](#): > > I knew I was dealing with a surgical abdomen. It was self-evident. It was an abdomen which would require surgical interference. An operative case . Now…this…this idiot then left her. He did not ask that she be hospitalized. He did not prescribe painkillers. he left. At 8:45 that night, he returned to look at her again- still as she lay asleep in Suite 1227. He saw her a total of four times, and yet never had her admitted to a hospital. In today’s terms, he was guilty (IMHO) of gross negligence and abandonment of a patient. After the fourth visit, he was replaced by a Dr. Melville Rumwell, and so was no longer legally her Dr. It was too late at that point. He blew it. But, **Fatty Arbuckle** wasn’t responsible for that Dr.'s negligence. And, since I’m not afraid to admit total ignorance here, WHO is William Desmond Taylor??? Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/11 "2001-04-23T20:58:28Z")
William Desmond Taylor, a director in the early Hollywood days, found murdered in 1922 [here](http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/la/scandals/taylor.html) and more [here](http://wdt.lcc.gatech.edu/) and one last one [here](http://www.angelfire.com/az/Taylorology/) note I am not advancing any of these particular scenarios as to the ‘real’ culprit. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/12 "2001-04-24T05:10:19Z")
So you’re saying that we can rule out Fatty’s known prior dalliances, which were blown out of proportion but extant. And we can ignore persistant rumor regarding his unusual endowment. And we can’t consider the stories which say she was drunkenly retired to his room, whereupon he followed, or was it her room, where he followed? And we can’t consider the possibility that he gave her the pile driver with her unknown (to him) preexisting conditions, and therefore committed involuntary manslaughter, if not murderous rape? Light me up with the facts, mein froinds! I’ve got the lamb suit on! ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/13 "2001-04-24T06:55:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Now, don’t everybody jump in all at once . . . We still have the William Desmond Taylor murder to hash out! > > OK, everyone knows by now that Arbuckle was not directly responsible for Rappe’s death—I have seen an investigation that pretty much proved that she died of a ruptured bladder, due to an untreated urinary tract infection. But she should have been gotten to a hospital immediately. Everyone was so afraid of it getting into the newspapers (there was illegal booze, among other things, at the party), that Rappe was left to linger painfully in a hotel room for three days, with only a “hotel doctor” of questionable references to care for her. > > So, I would say that everyone in charge—the doctor, the hotel, the partygivers—were guilty of negligent manslaughter. > > What really annoys me is how—in order to make Arbuckle seem “less guilty”—his friends and the press (not at the time, but in the years since) ganged up on Virginia rappe, and she has been painted as a no-talent slut who got what she deserved. She was actually a respected starlet who had garnered very favorable reviews. \*\* I agree. I think Eve’s hit it on the head. Rappe was becoming a star, and probably would have been remembered in the company of Mabel Norman and others of her ilk. I supremely doubt Arbuckle did anything on purpose to harm her. But, the guests and the studio did collude to cover it up and effectively killed her through negligence. William Desmond Taylor? Maybe a murderous Mary Miles Minter? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/14 "2001-04-24T06:59:41Z")
By the by… I think William Desmond Taylor is far more interesting for the mysteries found inside the mystery It’s a juicy little scandal, with false identity, destruction of a wholesome image, and a little buggery to boot. Arbuckle is just a case of wrongful death, bringing down a top star of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/15 "2001-04-24T13:16:16Z")
OK, I guess we all agree on poor Virginia, more or less. Now. William Desmond Taylor. I have read both books on the case and perused as much of the Taylorology Web site as is possible (it’s the longest goddam site in the world). There are a lot of harebrained theories, but I tend to think Mary Miles Minter’s mother, Charlotte, dunnit. There are other theories that make sense, too, though—a drug dealer annoyed with Taylor’s anti-drug activities; his mysterious “chauffeur,” a spurned girlfriend, Mary herself. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/16 "2001-04-24T13:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\*At 4:45pm on the day of the party, she was seen by a Dr. Olav Kaarboe. \*\* Fools! Have NONE of you noticed that Dr. Olav Kaarboe, when spelled in reverse, is **Dr. Eobraak Valo?** Yes! The very same Eobraak Valo who was the scourge of 1910s San Francisco…from his vile den in the foul sinks of Chinatown, his long, greasy, grasping fingers reached out into the world of crime, twirling yo-yo strings of blackmail, prostitution, extortion, opium-running, and aggravated mopery! It is my conviction that this lecherous monster of the Barbary Coast, this Eobraak Valo, did willingly MURDER poor Virginia as she lay fainting on Arbuckle’s king-sized bed, in order to EAT HER HEART RAW. The hapless Arbuckle was fingered for the crime by anti-Hollywood moral crusaders in a stunning turnaround of justice. …Fourteen posts to this thread so far and NO ONE has brought up the Champagne bottle/Coca-Cola bottle angle? When Art Speigelman drew the Arbuckle/Rappe story up for his _Hollywood Scandals_ underground comic, he included a Coke bottle in EVERY PANEL. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/17 "2001-04-24T13:44:20Z")
Oh, really, Ike . . . Everyone knows that the infamous coke bottle was the same one that Jack Pickford had filled with sodium chloride and passed to Olive Thomas in their hotel room that night in 1920. Fatty Arbuckle merely held onto it, so he could blackmail Jack’s sister Mary with it . . . ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/18 "2001-04-24T14:22:37Z")
Yeah, but my point is that it’s common knowledge the infamous **Dr. Eobraak Valo,** that nefarious Kingpin of crime and Nemesis of American family values, preferred Pepsi. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/19 "2001-04-24T14:31:30Z")
. . . Pepsi? Are you insinuating that Joan Crawford was somehow involved in all this? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904/20 "2001-04-24T14:55:36Z")
Think about it, sweetie. Have you ever seen a photograph of Virginia Rappe and Joan Crawford together? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-roscoe-fatty-arbuckle-murder-virginia-rappe/62904.md?page=2)