# Did Rove put gay marriage on the ballot to get people to vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323 "2004-11-06T05:20:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/1 "2004-11-06T05:20:27Z")
An American friend alleged today that Karl Rove saw to it that the anti-same-sex marriage measures were placed on the ballot, when they would normally be dealt with by the legislature, so that people who felt strongly on that issue would come and vote, and in the process vote for Bush when they might not have voted otherwise. In other words, political interference used the denial of our rights as a ploy to get the vote out. AFAIAC, shocking if true. What are the facts surrounding this allegation? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/2 "2004-11-06T05:35:33Z")
It doesn’t even make a lot of sense. Rove has no power or influence over state initiatives. Some of the initiatives were a result of citizen petitions, which Rove certainly wasn’t behind - he’s already a busy guy, I don’t think he flew out to Oregon to go door to door with petitions. It’s just a silly idea. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/3 "2004-11-06T05:43:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It doesn’t even make a lot of sense. Rove has no power or influence over state initiatives. Some of the initiatives were a result of citizen petitions, which Rove certainly wasn’t behind - he’s already a busy guy, I don’t think he flew out to Oregon to go door to door with petitions. It’s just a silly idea. The idea that Rove personally flew over to Oregon and personally knocked door to door is a silly idea, but the notion that he may have otherwise assisted in getting the initiatives on the ballot is not so far fetched. Who knows how many operatives are on the RNC payroll disguised as “concerned citizens”. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/4 "2004-11-06T08:00:36Z")
I agree with Blalron. All the Republican honchos had to do was tell their supporters that they’d like to see this on the ballot. Also, once they heard news reports about the first one or two of these things, gung ho Repubs elsewhere could have grabbed the idea and run with it, without anyone asking them to. It was not hard to figure out the real benefit – getting religious right poeple to vote, so as to get extra Bush votes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/5 "2004-11-06T09:28:07Z")
Yeah, that was it. The Dems don’t need to do anything different next time, because Rove put gay marriage on the ballot. Just keep doing everything the same, and next time the Dems will win because you can only put gay marriage on the ballot once. Oh, is that a strawman? Well, it makes as much sense as the OP and those who agree. Gay marriage was put on the ballot as a backlash against the MA court decision and the SF free for all. No one needed Rove! Does that make it righ? No, it doesn’t. But constantly looking to blame someone else for a party’s shortcoming is, how shall we say, ostrich-like sand burrying, to borrow an image from the election… ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/6 "2004-11-06T13:00:34Z")
I believe that Karl Rove advised Bush that making it an issue in this campaign would help his reelection. In early 2004, when Dean looked like the likely nominee, I’m sure the Republicans wanted to attack Dean’s signing of the Vermont civil unions law. Making it an issue and having it on the ballot would also get out the fundamentalists who may have been wavering in their support of Bush because of the economy and Iraq. Getting it on the ballot in Ohio probably sealed the election for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/7 "2004-11-06T13:04:25Z")
Here’s how to counter it. Eleven states had this on their ballot in 2004. We need to get it on the ballot in the other 39 for 2006. With it out of the way, we won’t have it to worry about in 2008- it will be a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/8 "2004-11-06T14:36:09Z")
**dale:** \*I believe that Karl Rove advised Bush that making it an issue in this campaign would help his reelection. \* That looks likely, considering Bush’s endorsement of a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage back in February. As columnist Bill Berkowitz [noted](http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16495) at the time, > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, February 24, America’s “war president” came out of the war-room closet just long enough to endorse a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. “After more than two centuries of American jurisprudence and millennia of human experience, a few judges and local authorities are presuming to change the most fundamental institution of civilization,” the president said. […] > > The Bush endorsement has Karl Rove’s uncertainty about the president’s re-election written all over it. Rove, the president’s master builder, is hoping that the same-sex marriage “culture war” issue will become the centerpiece of the 2004 election and energize the president’s base. And indeed, the gay-marriage issue was an “energizing factor” in the GOP [get-out-the-vote](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/31/gop.tent/) effort, as this August CNN article reports: > [@](#): > > Bob Fannin chairs the Republican Party in the swing state of Arizona, which has 10 electoral votes. The drive to tout the president’s record and get folks to the polls there is unprecedented, he said. > > “I’ve been in Republican politics for a long time, for over 40 years,” Fannin said. "And in my view of it, I’ve never seen anything like it. > > “It’s coordinated from the Republican National Committee and the Bush-Cheney campaign in a very, very aggressive way. … We are right on top of it every week. We have conferences with the Republican National Committee; if they see a weakness some place, we put another person in there. …” > > The Republicans need their core supporters, and some state ballot issues could help guarantee their turnout, said CNN political analyst Carlos Watson. […] > > “There are five swing states that on Election Day have gay marriage bans on the ballot,” Watson said. "And I think that certainly could be a catalyst for more conservatives or Republican-leaning voters to come out and vote for the president. > > “The president’s chief adviser, Karl Rove, has said repeatedly that one of his goals for this election was to increase the turnout among evangelical Christians,” Watson said. “In his estimation, some 4 million evangelical Christians stayed home in 2000 and did not vote. So one of the things is to … turn out your base.” **JM:** \* Gay marriage was put on the ballot as a backlash against the MA court decision and the SF free for all. No one needed Rove!\* However, it’s clear that a chief goal of Rove’s electoral strategy was to energize the religious-right base, and that the state gay-marriage-ban amendments were a very useful tool for that purpose. Rove may not have thought them up, but he certainly exploited them for all they were worth. **JM:** _Does that make it [right]? No, it doesn’t. But constantly looking to blame someone else for a party’s shortcoming is, how shall we say, ostrich-like sand burrying_ No, I think it’s a valid question to ask what kind of tactics an opponent is using before we change our own tactics to adapt to them. If Republicans were playing on anti-gay fears and bigotry to attract more votes, then I don’t consider that their success represents a “shortcoming” on the part of the Democrats. Despite the unfortunate consequences, I think there’s still something to be said for preferring to lose by playing clean rather than win by playing dirty. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/9 "2004-11-06T15:44:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, I think it’s a valid question to ask what kind of tactics an opponent is using before we change our own tactics to adapt to them. If Republicans were playing on anti-gay fears and bigotry to attract more votes, then I don’t consider that their success represents a “shortcoming” on the part of the Democrats. Despite the unfortunate consequences, I think there’s still something to be said for preferring to lose by playing clean rather than win by playing dirty. If this was an organized effort, directed by Rove, there would have been a ballot initiative in FL and PA. I think it was just a very fortunate circumstance and would not have even come up in the election had not MA and SF made it an issue in the first place. But let’s say is was an organized effort. Does that make it a dirty trick? I don’t really think so. After what happened in MA and SF, there were efforts by mayors in several other states (OR and NY at least) to insititute SSM in their cities. So, it was reasonable for the anti-SSM crowd to believe that the only way to stop it was to get state amendments passed. There are plenty of real Republican “dirty tricks”-- no need to create illusionary ones. On the other side of the aisle, I’d consider [Dean’s “Bush will institute the draft” editorial](http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_13568.shtml) a few weeks before the election to be more of a dirty trick since there is almost no chance we’ll see a draft in the next 4 yearrs. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/10 "2004-11-06T16:45:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Oh, is that a strawman? Well, it makes as much sense as the OP and those who agree. Gay marriage was put on the ballot as a backlash against the MA court decision and the SF free for all. No one needed Rove! Did anyone get the message that MA will take care of MA if we think it is a problem? We do have a legislature here, too, you know. We don’t need anyone to react for us. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/11 "2004-11-06T17:01:37Z")
**JM:** _Does that make it [right]? No, it doesn’t._ **JM:** _Does that make it a dirty trick? I don’t really think so._ Sorry, but I’m not understanding you here. I thought that your first remark was an acknowledgement that it was unethical for the GOP to play to anti-gay prejudice (while recognizing that it wasn’t the party’s campaign strategists who first initiated the anti-SSM amendments) in order to inflame religious-right voters. I agreed, and commented that I thought it was no shame to the Democratic party to have been beaten by unethical tactics; the shame belongs rather to the victors who used such tactics. Now, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the GOP tactics **weren’t** unethical. So which is it? I don’t mind if we disagree on this point, but I’d like to be clear about it. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/12 "2004-11-06T17:05:22Z")
**John Mace** : > [@](#): > > The Dems don’t need to do anything different next time, because Rove put gay marriage on the ballot. Just keep doing everything the same, and next time the Dems will win because you can only put gay marriage on the ballot once. How about a measure that would establish the right of communities to pass binding legislation banning or regulating the filling of prescriptions for birth control pills or equipment within their community? They could do it selectively, you know. Married women with at least one child can have birth control pills. Married men can buy condoms. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/13 "2004-11-06T21:11:01Z")
Karl Rove is very good at figuring out how to energize the base. He gets a simple message out, makes his base feel attacked, and lets the rest take care of itself. Gay marriage just happened to be the thing this time. He’ll find some other attack on traditional values next time. Democrats shouldn’t fall for the trap - Kerry should have said it wasn’t nearly the issue Iraq, the economy, and the budget deficit are, and that it’s just an attempt to distract people. He didn’t do that, and let it become a huge issue. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/14 "2004-11-06T21:25:42Z")
Paul Freedman, [The Gay Marriage Myth](http://slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2109275&), in Salon: > [@](#): > > The evidence that having a gay-marriage ban on the ballot increased voter turnout is spotty. Marriage-ban states did see higher turnout than states without such measures. They also saw higher increases in turnout compared with four years ago. But these differences are relatively small. Based on preliminary turnout estimates, 59.5 percent of the eligible voting population turned out in marriage-ban states, whereas 59.1 percent turned out elsewhere. . . > > By a statistically insignificant margin, putting gay marriage on the ballot actually reduced the degree to which Bush’s vote share in the affected states exceeded his vote share elsewhere. (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/15 "2004-11-06T21:32:33Z")
Don’t go talkin’ facts, Walloon. They’ve got a new narrative and they’re sticking to it. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/16 "2004-11-06T21:55:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If this was an organized effort, directed by Rove, there would have been a ballot initiative in FL and PA. I think it was just a very fortunate circumstance and would not have even come up in the election had not MA and SF made it an issue in the first place. And for what it’s worth, in some states it didn’t work–Bush didn’t take Michigan, even with that porposal passing. Cranky, proud to be in one of only two counties in the entire state whose voters defeated it (not that it matters) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/17 "2004-11-06T21:59:00Z")
**furt:** _Don’t go talkin’ facts, Walloon._ Or at least, try not to leave out important relevant facts. All that **Walloon** ’s article shows is that there was not a great difference in turnout between states that were voting on a gay-marriage amendment and ones that weren’t. It doesn’t address the question of whether the campaign focus on the gay-marriage issue energized the religious right **overall**. Religious conservatives can be induced to vote against candidates that they see as pro-gay even if they’re not voting specifically against a gay-marriage amendment. As my cite stated, Rove **did** consider it very important to energize religious conservatives to vote. And Republican campaign literature **did** use the gay-marriage issue even in states where there was no anti-SSM ballot measure. Consider the infamous GOP “liberals will ban the Bible and men will marry men” [flyer](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/24/politics/main645393.shtml) distributed both in Arkansas, which had an anti-SSM amendment on the ballot, and West Virginia, which didn’t: > [@](#): > > Campaign literature mailed by the Republican National Committee warns voters in two states that the Bible will be prohibited and men will marry men if “liberals” win in November. > > The New York Times reported that the mass mailing was sent to voters in Arkansas and West Virginia, and was part of a GOP effort to mobilize religious voters. > > The literature shows a Bible with the word “BANNED” across it and a photo of a man, on his knees, placing a ring on the hand of another man with the word “ALLOWED.” The mailing tells West Virginians to “vote Republican to protect our families” and defeat the “liberal agenda.” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/18 "2004-11-06T22:41:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > All that **Walloon** ’s article shows is that there was not a great difference in turnout between states that were voting on a gay-marriage amendment and ones that weren’t. It doesn’t address the question of whether the campaign focus on the gay-marriage issue energized the religious right **overall**. I live in Florida, as swingy a state as they get. I go to a semi-RR church. I teach part time at a religious-affiliated college. Gay marriage was not an issue anyone was discussing. I’m registered Libertarian, which is why (I think) I get a shitload of Republican direct mail, and I watch TV. There were no Bush ads – and believe me, I saw hundreds – that touched on gay marriage or morality. It was wall-to-wall Iraq/WOT, mostly negative stuff about Kerry being untrustworthy or soft on defense. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/19 "2004-11-06T23:00:01Z")
From a Dem political analyst: > [@](#): > > More importantly, between 2000 and 2004, President Bush’s largest gains occurred among less religious voters, not among more religious voters. Among those attending services more than weekly and those attending every week, support for Bush rose by 1 percent, from 63 percent in 2000 to 64 percent in 2004. However, among those attending services a few times a month, support for Bush rose by 4 points, from 46 percent to 50 percent, among those attending only a few times a year, support for Bush rose by 3 points, from 42 percent to 45 percent, and among those never attending services, support for Bush rose by 4 points, from 32 percent to 36 percent. > > Bottom line: the President made gains across the board among voters, regardless of their degree of religious commitment but he made his largest gains among less religious voters. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323/20 "2004-11-06T23:08:55Z")
Forgot the link: [http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyrising/archives/000930.php](http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyrising/archives/000930.php) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rove-put-gay-marriage-on-the-ballot-to-get-people-to-vote/273323.md?page=2)