# Did Rumsfeld commit perjury? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409 "2004-05-16T08:24:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/1 "2004-05-16T08:24:48Z")
Seymour Hersh has written another article detailing further what exactly went wrong at Abu Ghraib and how and…wow. **Boyo Jim** posted this up in the Pit, but as I’m still getting my “political wings” after years of complete apathy, I’m coming to you guys for a clearer picture. It seems to me from the article, that if the allegations laid out therein are true, I don’t see how Rumsfeld can expect to keep his job, and may in fact have commited perjury under oath before Congress. I haven’t read the entire actual testimony he gave to Congress, though I did watch and read the highlights from various news sources, and from what I understood, he basically said this was an aberration. That the alleged suspects who commited the abuses at Abu Ghraib perpetrated the abuses of their own accord, and not under orders from anyone. (If I am incorrect, please correct me…I am most interested in getting my facts straight, not a partisan argument, and I mean this with all sincerity.) Well, [that may well not be the case](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact#top), at all. > [@](#): > > According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon’s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld’s long-standing desire to wrest control of America’s clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A. > > Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, “Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding.” The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfeld’s testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, “Some people think you can bullshit anyone.” [The CNN headline reads “Report: Rumsfeld policy allowed Abu Ghraib abuse”](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/15/iraq.abuse.main/index.html) > [@](#): > > The Abu Ghraib prison scandal was not the result of a few misguided soldiers, but of a decision last year by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to expand a clandestine operation against al Qaeda to the treatment of prisoners in Iraq, according to a report in The New Yorker. > > Rumsfeld’s goal was to bring the success of the secret terrorism program to Iraq in an effort to “generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency,” the magazine reports. > > The rules governing the secret operation were “Grab whom you must. Do what you want,” according to a former intelligence official whom Seymour M. Hersh quotes anonymously in “The Gray Zone.” Now, the Pentagon has thus far denied the allegations, but that isn’t necessarily indicative of innocence or lack thereof at the moment…I wouldn’t expect anyone to admit any guilt preceding a trial, or blame anyone for not doing so. What I am asking you guys for is the “Politics for Dummies” version. Seems to me the allegations Hersh has laid out are _very_ grave indeed…is this the nail in Rumsfeld’s coffin? Will Cambone be forced to take the fall instead? Can Bush be implicated in this? I’d like to at least try to stay away from partisan arguing in this thread…just the facts, please. I want to know what this means for our whole country, not just the dems or the pubs. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/2 "2004-05-16T10:33:40Z")
I wonder if these claims, whether true or not, are CIA “payback” for the Plame affair? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/3 "2004-05-16T20:13:15Z")
There have been a number of different sources on this than just the CIA. All the sources say different things about the level of involvement of others, but all agree that the Pentagon and the White House were involved. At this point, there’s too many confirming claims from too many sources to write it off as abunch of rumors or payback. Other sources claim that the CIA was pushing from the start and actually got the Pentagon on board. [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989438/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989438/) Turns out that JAG has been complaining about this for years: [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/JAG\_detainees\_040515-1.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/JAG_detainees_040515-1.html) Also turns out that the Pentagon lied to Congress about whether or not there was a report available on the conditions and mismangement allegations surrounding Abu Ghraib. Apparently there is a memo somewhere that says that the war on terror “renders obsolete Geneva’s strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions.” Shame we didn’t tell anyone we were planning on changing the convention, or ask for amendments to be made. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/4 "2004-05-16T20:28:36Z")
I’ll be surprised in Rumsfeld said anything that wasn’t technically true. Depending on what your definition of is is of course. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/5 "2004-05-16T22:33:27Z")
Hmmm… just read the Pentagon’s direct quote on the article: “Assertions apparently being made in the latest New Yorker article on Abu Ghraib and the abuse of Iraqi detainees are outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture.” Apparently? This sounds not only like they aren’t clear on the specific allegations (they might think it says there was some direct order from Rumsfeld to torture prisoners, which it does not claim) but also don’t really get around to denying the basic charges or any specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/6 "2004-05-16T23:59:34Z")
I haven’t read the entire transcript of Rumsfeld’s testimony so I cannot say right now. We still don’t have what I consider “beyond reasonable doubt” proof that anything happening at Abu Ghraib was a systematic conspiracy to torture Iraqis (crafted from on high.) I’ve also not even seen anything suggesting it was anything more than simple and cruel bullying of prisoners, as opposed to intelligence gathering. All the reports I’ve seen haven’t mentioned the accused soldier-guards of trying to gather intelligence, but of just indiscriminately torturing and abusing people. So, for one, we cannot link clearly the incidents at Abu Ghraib with intelligence gathering, because we don’t even know for sure that these incidents were in any way related to the intelligence aspect of the conflict. We have no proof as to what Rumsfeld knew, is the second and most important fact. Even if it is proven to be a Pentagon hatched scheme to torture prisoners for information, unless evidence comes up that clearly and without a doubt proves that Rumsfeld knew XX was going on and that he then explicitly lied about it, he cannot be charged with perjury. Also, Rumsfeld could also have ordered the torture, known about the results, and still not have committed perjury if he was careful with his words. I haven’t read all the transcripts of what he said so I have no clue. And I certainly have not (and neither have you or any reporter that I’ve seen) referenced his transcript to “evidence” that we know _for a fact_ that he had seen. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/7 "2004-05-17T02:50:49Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > So, for one, we cannot link clearly the incidents at Abu Ghraib with intelligence gathering, because we don’t even know for sure that these incidents were in any way related to the intelligence aspect of the conflict. "Regarding Detention Operations, MG Miller’s team stated that the function of Detention Operations is to provide a safe, secure, and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence. However, it also stated “it is essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees.”… The Miller Team also stated that establishment of the Theater Joint Interrogation and Detention Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) will consolidate both detention and strategic interrogation operations and result in synergy between MP and MI resources and an integrated, synchronized, and focused strategic interrogation effort. " Also… "The recommendations of MG Miller’s team that the “guard force” be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees would appear to be in conflict with the recommendations of MG Ryder’s Team and AR 190-8 that military police “do not participate in military intelligence supervised interrogation sessions.” The Ryder Report concluded that the [Operation Enduring Freedom] template whereby military police actively set the favorable conditions for subsequent interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility. " [Link.](http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm) If someone can’t draw a link between intelligence gathering and “setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees,” well, then, I’m at a loss. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/8 "2004-05-17T03:07:50Z")
Firstly I’ll not be regarding that link, as it is from a .org, I’ll need something from a .gov or .mil before I believe that is an official military report. Secondly, no one (myself included, obviously) was saying that intelligence gathering was not done. Obviously intelligence gathering was done, it has been discussed extensively. But in these Abu Ghraib cases I have serious doubt that intelligence gathering had anything to do with it. I mean, naked pyramids of Iraqis? Goofy panty torture? Let’s think about this for a second. Firstly, that’s one freaky way of extracting information. Secondly, the soldiers that have been spotted in these photos are in some cases NATIONAL GUARD members, and in others, very low level soldiers. I find it difficult/impossible to believe that the Army was seriously using national guardsmen as interrogators. Which is why, in the cases where photographic evidence exists, I’m tending to believe it was just bullying and intimidation in an indiscriminate manner. I’ve yet to see it clearly linked to intelligence gathering, and the link and quotes you offered do not clearly link the specific incidents featured in the photos with intelligence gathering. All they say is that intelligence gathering is going to be happening, that proves nothing, and disproves nothing. Everyone already knew intelligence gathering was certainly happening in Iraq, and no one was claiming it was not. So in summation; ball 1, keep in the strike zone next time or you’re going to end up putting me on base. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/9 "2004-05-17T03:12:32Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Firstly I’ll not be regarding that link, as it is from a .org, I’ll need something from a .gov or .mil before I believe that is an official military report. Oh for chrissakes, the link is to the Taguba Report. Are you really that uninformed? Just because **Ravenman** found the text of it on a non-government website doesn’t mean it’s not straight from the US Army’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/10 "2004-05-17T03:15:03Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Oh for chrissakes, the link is to the Taguba Report. Are you really that uninformed? Just because **Ravenman** found the text of it on a non-government website doesn’t mean it’s not straight from the US Army’s mouth. It is just a sad reflection of our times that I can’t trust a .org, because I don’t put it above action groups to intentionally falsify information. We’ve certainly seen it happen before. I’ve not read then entire Taguba Report, and have only briefly looked at it ever, I have no idea what it says word for word, so that link could easily be a distortion or a falsification, it probably isn’t, but you can’t be too safe. And people like Ravenman need to learn how to go to legitimate websites to get their information, anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/11 "2004-05-17T04:08:48Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > I’ll be surprised in Rumsfeld said anything that wasn’t technically true. Depending on what your definition of is is of course. So for you, blowjob = torture? Strange but common attitude among Republicans lately. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/12 "2004-05-17T04:15:09Z")
**Martin** , you’re rapidly becoming unreasonable. It seems that the Taguba Report is [not available](http://listserv.access.gpo.gov/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0405&L=gpo-fdlp-l&F=&S=&P=742) straight from the horse’s mouth. It can, however, be found at: [The Memory Hole](http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/taguba_report.htm) [The Smoking Gun](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0505041torture1.html) [globalsecurity.org](http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm) [MSNBC](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/) [findlaw](http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html) …among other places. I didn’t open the Smoking Gun’s pdf version, but all the others have the text as quoted by **Ravenman**. So, are you suggesting that all these sources are engaged in conspiracy to deceive the public as to the actual contents of the report by all posting the same altered version? Perhaps [this site](http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html) can help you. I’m not at all sure I can. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/13 "2004-05-17T04:39:24Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > And people like Ravenman need to learn how to go to legitimate websites to get their information, anyways. Wait, you are actually saying that the U.S. government is the only source of accurate and reliable information? I’ll take the word of an independent non-profit over that government’s any day. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/14 "2004-05-17T14:06:27Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So for you, blowjob = torture? Strange but common attitude among Republicans lately. I think you have been whooshed by a known Anti-Bush person getting the inevitable Clinton blow-job reference out of the way early in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/15 "2004-05-17T14:41:00Z")
Originally Posted by SimonX I’ll be surprised in Rumsfeld said anything that wasn’t technically true. Depending on what your definition of is is of course. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > So for you, blowjob = torture? Strange but common attitude among Republicans lately. Your irony meter’s needs adjustment. Please see vendor for recalibration. I still doubt that Rumsfeld said anything that wasn’t [technically correct](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3700315&highlight=technically+correct#post3700315). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/16 "2004-05-17T14:44:49Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > It is just a sad reflection of our times that I can’t trust a .org, because I don’t put it above action groups to intentionally falsify information. It’s a sad reflection on you that you pre-judged the link before you even opened it. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/17 "2004-05-17T14:58:42Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > But in these Abu Ghraib cases I have serious doubt that intelligence gathering had anything to do with it. > > I mean, naked pyramids of Iraqis? Goofy panty torture? Let’s think about this for a second. > > Firstly, that’s one freaky way of extracting information. Secondly, the soldiers that have been spotted in these photos are in some cases NATIONAL GUARD members, and in others, very low level soldiers. > > I find it difficult/impossible to believe that the Army was seriously using national guardsmen as interrogators. Which is why, in the cases where photographic evidence exists, I’m tending to believe it was just bullying and intimidation in an indiscriminate manner. > > I’ve yet to see it clearly linked to intelligence gathering, and the link and quotes you offered do not clearly link the specific incidents featured in the photos with intelligence gathering. All they say is that intelligence gathering is going to be happening, that proves nothing, and disproves nothing. Everyone already knew intelligence gathering was certainly happening in Iraq, and no one was claiming it was not. > > So in summation; ball 1, keep in the strike zone next time or you’re going to end up putting me on base. You think seriously about it. Even without the reports of intelligence gathering by “unConventional” means, do you think those soldiers went to Iraq with hoods and whips? Do you think that even if they somehow, on their own, obtained that equipment they would be stupid enough to photograph their abuse and even pose for the abuse? Noone with enough intelligence to get into the military would be that stupid. The abuse was obviously done and photographed to intimidate and humiliate the prisoners and to make them talk so the photos would not be made public. Iraqi men shown naked in photos is a disgrace in their religion, esp. with the added sadism. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/18 "2004-05-17T15:27:42Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > It is just a sad reflection of our times that I can’t trust a .org, because I don’t put it above action groups to intentionally falsify information. > > We’ve certainly seen it happen before. I’ve not read then entire Taguba Report, and have only briefly looked at it ever, I have no idea what it says word for word, so that link could easily be a distortion or a falsification, it probably isn’t, but you can’t be too safe. > > And people like Ravenman need to learn how to go to legitimate websites to get their information, anyways. Oh dear frickin’ god! You realize, you really are not helping your claims by saying that you treat this version of the Taguba report with guarded suspicion considering that it has been posted by so many different web-sites in the exact same text, including non-political sources such as FindLaw. > [@](#): > > We still don’t have what I consider “beyond reasonable doubt” proof that anything happening at Abu Ghraib was a systematic conspiracy to torture Iraqis (crafted from on high.) I’ve also not even seen anything suggesting it was anything more than simple and cruel bullying of prisoners, as opposed to intelligence gathering. All the reports I’ve seen haven’t mentioned the accused soldier-guards of trying to gather intelligence, but of just indiscriminately torturing and abusing people. Since when the hell do we need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to make public policy decisions? We certainly didn’t have proof beyond a reasonable doubt when we went into Iraq re: WMD, but now we need one when we have so many sources plainly stating that Rumsfield and the Pentagon at least was open to the suggestion of expanding a special access program related to dealing with high value, pre-approved terrorist targets to average Iraqi’s. I will grant that we still don’t have a clear picture that Rumsfield specifically knew of the specific actions taken by actual troops to produce an environment that was conductive to interogation, but I think it is pretty clear that Rumsfield was hoping to create an environment where such, “softening-up” might occurr from the New Yorker article. The fact that JAG officers were going to private legal organizations and attempting to raise puble awareness of American foreign policy in regards to detainee treatment should be pretty telling to you. And that is something we can say for sure happened, without relying upon unamed sources. Do you think that those JAG officers were just bored and underworked? Maybe they just lost an inter-office ping-pong match and had to start agitating the administration just for the hell of it? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/19 "2004-05-17T16:00:00Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Since when the hell do we need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to make public policy decisions? The reference to “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” seemed strange, until I realized that we are accusing Rumsfeld of a crime. So, we would need more evidence to send him to jail. But we already have enough evidence to demand his resignation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409/20 "2004-05-17T18:28:49Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I mean, naked pyramids of Iraqis? Goofy panty torture? Let’s think about this for a second. > > Firstly, that’s one freaky way of extracting information. Secondly, the soldiers that have been spotted in these photos are in some cases NATIONAL GUARD members, and in others, very low level soldiers. > > I find it difficult/impossible to believe that the Army was seriously using national guardsmen as interrogators. Which is why, in the cases where photographic evidence exists, I’m tending to believe it was just bullying and intimidation in an indiscriminate manner. Good grief. Have you given up reading the papers along with Bush and Rummy? The National Guardsmen were MPs serving as guards. No one has claimed they were interrogators, or that interrogation was happening during the abuse. If you wonder at undertrained Guardsmen doing this, you can thank Rummy for it. It still seems unclear who was in their chain of command at the time. the MP chain or the MI chain. I’m surprised that there might be something close to a smoking gun here. That the abuse happened is not so surprising. Remember the debate when the first aQ people were captured, when the government said that anything beyond sleeplessness was counterproductive? Guess no one told the guardsmen that. The equation here is Terrorists are not covered by the Geneva convention, not being soldiers. Anyone against us in Iraq is a terrorist. Anyone not proven innocent and picked up might be a terrorist, see first line. Therefore, the Geneva convention does not apply anymore. With these guidelines, abuse was inevitable. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-rumsfeld-commit-perjury/245409.md?page=2)