# Did Something Change? \[Public attitudes following the San Bernardino shootings\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358 "2015-12-03T21:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/81 "2015-12-05T21:26:44Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Just like the idea that you and your popgun could possibly have any effect on the US government is more than just laughably absurd, it’s dangerous both because of the implication of terrorist-style violence against a democratically elected government just because you don’t like it, and because it ignores and denigrates the real power that people have in a democracy, the power of the ballot. To me, this is the most disturbing part about this line of argumentation. Not just that it’s almost certainly woefully wrong for a number of reasons I’m glad to get into\*, but that it implies that many people are essentially willing to condone or commit domestic terrorism if they don’t get the government they want. Hey Common Tater, what would need to happen before you’d be on the side of the guy who walks up to the White House lawn and starts opening fire on government officials? Or tries to plant a bomb in a statehouse? \*(one notable one: there’s a good reason Glasznost quickly destroyed the Soviet Union. An important part of dictatorships is making sure that people don’t know how collectively pissed everyone involved is. When you have the Stasi breathing down your back, are you likely to tell your neighbor how you feel about the government? Also, you’re up against the entire freakin’ armed forces; that does not end well for you guys!) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/82 "2015-12-06T05:55:48Z")
Someone on my Facebook feed thought they would appeal to my Liberal libbiness and said that with the out of control cops that having a gun would help. I told him to shoot a cop - or even just point your gun at the officer - and let me know how it turns out. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/83 "2015-12-06T19:43:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Has “radicalization” always been a word? I keep seeing it used on the news discussing this latest shooting. > > If a Christian is convinced at church to do missionary work, has (s)he been radicalized? Yes. Any time one person feels compelled to force their illogical, delusional beliefs on others, that’s radicalization Christianity just has a more efficient PR/advertising department than the competing illogical belief systems, makes it appear to be less malignant than other B.S. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/84 "2015-12-06T21:44:11Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > Yes. > > Any time one person feels compelled to force their illogical, delusional beliefs on others, that’s radicalization > > Christianity just has a more efficient PR/advertising department than the competing illogical belief systems, makes it appear to be less malignant than other B.S. Forced? What do you think missionaries do? I’ve been on 3 mission trips. We built houses for the poor. I was the only one in our group that spoke any Spanish (and mine is barely passable) so there was no witnessing. We’re far more concerned with getting people fed, clothed and safe than we are what their beliefs are. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/85 "2015-12-06T22:06:37Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > Yes. > > Any time one person feels compelled to force their illogical, delusional beliefs on others, that’s radicalization > > Christianity just has a more efficient PR/advertising department than the competing illogical belief systems, makes it appear to be less malignant than other B.S. I don’t think it is just this. Some of the products are more difficult to polish than others, so some of the PR departments have an easier task. Islam’s destructive nature is more obvious that Christianity’s, due to the profession of the originator, and thus Christianity’s negative effects are more insipid. As far as public attitudes changing after the attack, the subtle shift I have noticed is exemplified by Huff Post hipsters sharing [Sam Harris memes](http://imgur.com/djoXr5F)on social media. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/86 "2015-12-07T17:25:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Two radical, fanatical, Muslims created pipe bombs in their pipe bomb factory in order to murder civilians. Nope, nothing has changed. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > “Maniacal Muslims Slaughter Innocents for No Reason.” Feels vaguely familiar, yes. Not enough to blame Islam itself, though. Let’s not get Nazi-draconian about it. Did you read the OP? Did you actually read my response to it? Which part of my post was incorrect? Which part was “Nazi-draconian”? What does “Nazi-draconian” even mean? You’re wrong to say that, “Maniacal Muslims Slaughter Innocents for No Reason”. I’m sure that these maniacal muslims believed they had very good reasons for murdering innocent people at a Christmas party. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/87 "2015-12-07T21:12:15Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Oh, what predictable bullshit. There are many countries that are as much or more of a “free society” as the US. Some people just use one simple definition of what “free” means. > > That’s produced by the Cato Institute, BTW. Look them up to see where their politics lie. I’m pretty sure that the cato institute’s reasons for the low marks are not in line with yours. Free society for them is fairly libertarian and not likely to line up too well with your definition. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/88 "2015-12-07T21:20:52Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > This is a very disingenuous argument to make. Are you trying to say that strong gun laws are supposed to create a force field that keeps guns out? Because they do not. It is still easily possible to go to another locale where guns are more readily available and then bring them to the strict-gun-law state and use them in a manner that is against those laws and a bunch of others. I think he was referring to the fact that these guys bought the guns (or at least some of them) legally inside the state of California. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/89 "2015-12-07T21:36:46Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I suspect we will be seeing more Muslim based mass murders in the US in the coming months and years, then the political narrative will change that we have to learn to accept that as the price of democracy and immigration. > > The gun control part of the debate will not change. It will be more to the front when it is some random white person, less when is immigrant Muslim based type. Agree. Did everyone see the financial headlines? Gun manufacturers stocks rallied after Obama’s Prime-time address. Barrydoinheckuvajob ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/90 "2015-12-07T23:17:55Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I suspect we will be seeing more Muslim based mass murders in the US in the coming months and years, then the political narrative will change that we have to learn to accept that as the price of democracy and immigration. > > The gun control part of the debate will not change. It will be more to the front when it is some random white person, less when is immigrant Muslim based type. It will be interesting to watch the GOP twist itself into knots to maintain the status quo. They are going to be forced into [a position](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/politics/push-for-gun-curbs-tied-to-no-fly-list-puts-republicans-on-the-spot.html) of defending the rights of suspected terrorists in purchasing guns. Several presidential candidates, including Christie, Trump and Kasich are already breaking ranks and saying that this may be a necessary gun control measure. What wins out? Their love of guns or their xenophobia? Stay tuned! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/91 "2015-12-08T01:10:53Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > It will be interesting to watch the GOP twist itself into knots to maintain the status quo. They are going to be forced into [a position](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/politics/push-for-gun-curbs-tied-to-no-fly-list-puts-republicans-on-the-spot.html) of defending the rights of suspected terrorists in purchasing guns. > > Several presidential candidates, including Christie, Trump and Kasich are already breaking ranks and saying that this may be a necessary gun control measure. > > What wins out? Their love of guns or their xenophobia? Stay tuned! To Obama’s question, _“What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy a semiautomatic weapon?”_, [I would respond as Volokh has](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/12/06/what-could-possibly-be-the-argument-for-allowing-a-terrorist-suspect-to-buy-a-semiautomatic-weapon/): > [@](#): > > [W]ouldn’t the argument be that these are just “suspect[s],” and we don’t deny constitutional rights based just on suspicion? If you think you can prove someone is a terrorist, lock him up. If you have probable cause to think he’s a terrorist, and think you can develop proof beyond a reasonable doubt, arrest him. Even if you have only suspicion, follow him, ask people about him, and so on. But if you don’t have enough to prosecute or even arrest someone, you can’t take away his constitutional rights, even if you suspect he’s a terrorist (or if you suspect he’s a drug dealer or a gang member or whatever else). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/92 "2015-12-08T01:29:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > To Obama’s question, _“What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy a semiautomatic weapon?”_, [I would respond as Volokh has](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/12/06/what-could-possibly-be-the-argument-for-allowing-a-terrorist-suspect-to-buy-a-semiautomatic-weapon/): I’m in favor of the Democrats politicizing the hell out of this most recent incident. In other words, I’m not sure why Republicans hate America so much that they are encouraging suspected terrorists to have semiautomatic weapons. They should really have a more realistic vision of the hatred that these foreigners have for our American freedoms. Don’t you think it’s time to stop these Islamicist enabling Republicans or do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/93 "2015-12-08T01:36:33Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’m in favor of the Democrats politicizing the hell out of this most recent incident. > > In other words, I’m not sure why Republicans hate America so much that they are encouraging suspected terrorists to have semiautomatic weapons. They should really have a more realistic vision of the hatred that these foreigners have for our American freedoms. Don’t you think it’s time to stop these Islamicist enabling Republicans or do you hate America? I’m not sure if this is intended to be clever or is just poorly crafted parody. In any case, Democrats politicizing the hell out of every incident they can is par for the course. It’s just that they are bad at it. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/94 "2015-12-08T04:03:02Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > It will be interesting to watch the GOP twist itself into knots to maintain the status quo. They are going to be forced into [a position](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/politics/push-for-gun-curbs-tied-to-no-fly-list-puts-republicans-on-the-spot.html) of defending the rights of suspected terrorists in purchasing guns. > > Several presidential candidates, including Christie, Trump and Kasich are already breaking ranks and saying that this may be a necessary gun control measure. > > What wins out? Their love of guns or their xenophobia? Stay tuned! Any other Constitutional rights we should take away based only upon suspicion? Did you see what it takes to get on the [terror watch list?](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/terrorist-watch-list_n_5617599.html) This is a softball waiting to get hit out of the park. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/95 "2015-12-08T04:39:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > To Obama’s question, _“What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy a semiautomatic weapon?”_, [I would respond as Volokh has](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/12/06/what-could-possibly-be-the-argument-for-allowing-a-terrorist-suspect-to-buy-a-semiautomatic-weapon/): An argument I agree with. If the government wants to ban someone from possessing a firearm, ban them from flying on an airliner, ban them from operating a business bank account, jail them or even drop a Hellfire missile on their heads, I am not going to say that they cannot justify this by making their case. But they _do_ need to make that case. I refuse to simply take the government’s word for it that their actions are justified by secret reasons, because we all know what the federal government does when it has that kind of power. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/96 "2015-12-08T04:49:03Z")
What’s especially amusing is the NY times’s take on this. The [NY times thinks the no-fly list is a violation of due process](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/opinion/terror-watch-lists-run-amok.html?_r=1&referer=). Wait, [now they don’t](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/tough-talk-and-a-cowardly-vote-on-terrorism.html). Now that’s parody. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/97 "2015-12-09T03:07:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > When you get “one of us” mowing down hundreds if not thousands in a large public gathering, then maybe things could change. Any volunteers? ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358/98 "2015-12-17T22:20:40Z")
You say “even the cops are pissed”, but I distinctly remember several Sheriffs a calling on citizens to carry at all times. Our local Sheriff, Sheriff Grady has publicly stayed that citizens should arm themselves. I’m on my phone or I would link to the quotes, but a simple Google search should bring them up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-something-change-public-attitudes-following-the-san-bernardino-shootings/739358.md?page=4)