# Did Soviet Communism Deliver on its Promises? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114 "2010-09-17T18:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/21 "2010-09-18T10:29:01Z")
Russia’s lack of a good transport system really gummed things up in WW2. And earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/22 "2010-09-20T19:36:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > > [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > > > So much of the USSR’s capital improvement was the result of the revolutionary spirit which genuinely galvanised much of the populace to higher levels of production. > > Let’s have a cite for that, please. [Stakhonovites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakahanovite) were folks that performed great feats of production out of revolutionary spirit. Their accomplishments were often stage managed or otherwise enhanced by the party. But it still resulted in increased production in certain cases. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/23 "2010-09-20T19:49:19Z")
**Smiling\_Bandit** and **Dan\_Ch** bring up the single biggest problem: a top-down planning approach that just wasn’t able to keep up with changing events. I’m a planner and we are always getting input from our citizens, either ahead of time in order to decide our next step, or during the plan amendment process, which can change our next move. Stalin was able to artificially squeeze results out of the Soviet economy through terror and throwing huge quantities of labor at problems. In the U.S., men like Carnegie and Rockerfeller had amazingly efficient management that was able to take huge capital investment and make nation-wide infrastructure. Stalin overcame inefficiency through an increased labor force. When you have the ability **and inclination** to arrest thousands just for their muscle power, you can move a lot of dirt. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/24 "2010-09-20T19:52:29Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m not going to try and predict all the way to the 1980’s. That’s nuts. But let’s say up to WW2. I’ll assume an authortarian but not brutal regime. > > First, Russia will probably have a fair amount of industrial production. It won’t have grown so much, but it will be there, and it will be a lot more efficient and effective when ti has to be. The cities are likely to have grown considerably with the death of serfdom. Agricultural prosperity means there’s tons and tons of food. The big downside of the cities is the massive unemployment rate: all that improvement means that even with the hugely increasing national exports (the profits of which are tending over time to get invested in industry, which produces higher returns), there’s just not enugh work being created. But nobody’s starving because food is cheap. It’s just that surplus labor is coming faster than it can be put to work. > > Ths is important, because that means that, along with the total lack of repression, vast prison colonies, huge numbers of executed peoploe, and no terrible war with Finland, there are a lot more Russians around anyway. So when Hitler doesn’t roll across the border, Russia will have even more manpower ready to not deal with him. Wow - these are huge, probably misfounded, assumptions. Russia in Czarist times was a brutally repressive kleptocracy, and viciously anti-semitic. There’s no reason to suppose that would have changed. A capitalist Russia in the 1920’s and 30’s - well - I see absolutely no reason to believe it wouldn’t have gone the way of other countries and descended into fascism. In fact, that descent would have been easier, because Russian capitalism and the state would presumably have had no qualms dealing harshly with organized labor and other social democratic groups. I don’t see any reason to suggest that Russia would have suddenly changed. Quasi-slavery and pogroms would have continued in the country, and brutal repression of any progressive forces in the cities. And the wealthy would have continued to loot the country and live as kings while others starved in the dark. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Wait, what? Well, yeah. Without Lenin’s takeover, I seriously doubt Hitler would ever have gained power in Germany. The Communists in Germany were especially powerful and dangerous in singificant respects because of the Soviet Union’s emergence (who quietly but potently backed them). Those same Communists are the group who worked with Hitler to break down and overthrow the State. No Russia, probably no Spartacists, no ongoing simmering near-rebellion, no Hitler. If Weimar is dismantled, it probably is because people don’t like it and opt for a more centrist Constitutional monarchy. That’s pretty offensive and nauseating, even from you. Blaming the victims again. While capitalists and the churches was cutting deals with the Nazis, the Communists and Socialists were fighting them, trying to protect the working class. And now it is their own fault they were stuck into camps. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/25 "2010-09-20T19:54:46Z")
With no evidence to back it up whatsoever, my gut feeling is that Czarist Russia would never have been able to keep fighting the Germans in WWII. Stalin succeeded in making Russia industrial, well-organized and bloody-minded enough to withstand the Nazis. I really doubt that the Czars could have done it and it still came at the cost of an unimaginable amount of lives. After WWII, I don’t see any upshot to Soviet Communism except, possibly, that it made the more civilized capitalist nations of the world a bit more apprehensive of the needs of the workers. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/26 "2010-09-20T22:32:37Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > **Smiling\_Bandit** and **Dan\_Ch** bring up the single biggest problem: a top-down planning approach that just wasn’t able to keep up with changing events. I’m a planner and we are always getting input from our citizens, either ahead of time in order to decide our next step, or during the plan amendment process, which can change our next move. > > Stalin was able to artificially squeeze results out of the Soviet economy through terror and throwing huge quantities of labor at problems. In the U.S., men like Carnegie and Rockerfeller had amazingly efficient management that was able to take huge capital investment and make nation-wide infrastructure. Stalin overcame inefficiency through an increased labor force. When you have the ability **and inclination** to arrest thousands just for their muscle power, you can move a lot of dirt. Please note that when it came to union-busting, certain American business leaders were pretty good at terror too. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/27 "2010-09-21T02:14:03Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Please note that when it came to union-busting, certain American business leaders were pretty good at terror too. Yeah. Some would argue that the difference was that Stalin was using state-sponsored terror whereas the industrial magnates were employing private violence. But a sad fact was that the government was almost always on the side of management and it was the police (and quite often the national guard) who broke up protestors on behalf of big business. I guess one difference was that the Soviets arrested thousands specifically to use them as prison labor while the US tycoons screwed their workers through private means and used force to when they tried to get some decent working conditions. Not nearly as bad as a gulag, but nothing to be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/28 "2010-09-21T02:29:17Z")
I’m currently reading the book [Red Plenty](http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/aug/07/red-plenty-francis-spufford-ussr) which I believe might be of interest to one or more posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/29 "2010-09-21T07:24:38Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > > [@Quartz](#): > > > > Let’s have a cite for that, please. > > [Stakhonovites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakahanovite) were folks that performed great feats of production out of revolutionary spirit. Their accomplishments were often stage managed or otherwise enhanced by the party. But it still resulted in increased production in certain cases. A few individual efforts - much less stage-managed or ‘enhanced’ - don’t make up ‘most of the populace’. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/30 "2010-09-21T19:53:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > > [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > > > [Stakhonovites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakahanovite) were folks that performed great feats of production out of revolutionary spirit. Their accomplishments were often stage managed or otherwise enhanced by the party. But it still resulted in increased production in certain cases. > > A few individual efforts - much less stage-managed or ‘enhanced’ - don’t make up ‘most of the populace’. The propaganda efforts may have been performed by comparatively few, but it did have an effect on much of the populace. My cite is the BBC documentary miniseries **Red Empire** , a production made just after the fall of Gorbechev. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/31 "2010-09-21T19:58:07Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > > [@Quartz](#): > > > > A few individual efforts - much less stage-managed or ‘enhanced’ - don’t make up ‘most of the populace’. > > The propaganda efforts may have been performed by comparatively few, but it did have an effect on much of the populace. My cite is the BBC documentary miniseries **Red Empire** , a production made just after the fall of Gorbechev. I’ll agree - it’s a lousy cite, but many things I have read about both the Red Army and Societ workers suggest that the Stakhonovite example did have many people at least trying to follow it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/32 "2010-09-21T22:06:38Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I don’t see any reason to suggest that Russia would have suddenly changed. Quasi-slavery and pogroms would have continued in the country, and brutal repression of any progressive forces in the cities. And the wealthy would have continued to loot the country and live as kings while others starved in the dark. _blinks_ Have you any idea what you’re talking about? There was this little affair called the Russian Revolution, which led not to a Communist state but a moderate social-democracy. I’ll grant it never got going as Lenin stabbed it in the back, but it was founded by real democratic reformers who very nearly turned Russia into a free society. [QUOTE=villa] That’s pretty offensive and nauseating, even from you. Blaming the victims again. While capitalists and the churches was cutting deals with the Nazis, the Communists and Socialists were fighting them, trying to protect the working class. And now it is their own fault they were stuck into camps. [/QUOTE] Once again, you confuse ignorance with argument. Suffice it to say your cute little “history” if the Nazi rise to power needs some, err… work. You have no idea what you are talking about. By the by, thank you for calling me vile. Given your particular viws on things, that’s a massive compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/33 "2010-09-21T22:08:43Z")
“Pure” Communism doesn’t work, like “pure” Capitalism doesn’t work. We need elements of ALL ideas. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/34 "2010-09-21T22:27:33Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > _blinks_ > > Have you any idea what you’re talking about? There was this little affair called the Russian Revolution, which led not to a Communist state but a moderate social-democracy. I’ll grant it never got going as Lenin stabbed it in the back, but it was founded by real democratic reformers who very nearly turned Russia into a free society. I think it’s you who have no idea what you are talking about. You’d have run crying to Mommy with a dirty diaper at the policies of the Socialist Revolutionaries. Anywhere else where Social Democracy comes to power, you and your ilk talk of it as the inevitable precursor of communism. There was no significant support for the Constitutional Democrats and other centrists. Mainly because they had no program to deal with the ills of Russia. “Very nearly turned Russia into a free society” - my God, that is one of the most naive things I have ever read. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Once again, you confuse ignorance with argument. Suffice it to say your cute little “history” if the Nazi rise to power needs some, err… work. You have no idea what you are talking about. > > By the by, thank you for calling me vile. Given your particular viws on things, that’s a massive compliment. I didn’t call you vile, though. I called your views offensive and nauseating. It was people of your views who sat back and watched as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet and their ilk rose to power. The fascists were welcomed as the defenders of capitalism, because capitalism had ensured the privilege of the nationalists and conservatives. The nationalists and conservatives might have held their nose a little, as the people Hitler ran with weren’t the right sort, but at least they could let him give the Reds a bloody nose. When it comes to fascism, there isn’t a middle ground. You are either actively against it, or you are a supporter of it. You have shown, time and time again, you are an apologist for it. Had the October Revolution failed, Russia would have ended up in some kind of authoritarian, fascistic state. Had the March revolution failed, Russia would have continued a backward, authoritarian, anti-semitic kleptocracy. After the October revolition succeeded, it ended up an oppressive, authoritarian Stalinist state. There was a chance for a better future, but the dividing point came later - had NEP been allowed to continue, we might have seen a very different, probably truly Democratic Socialist, Russia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/35 "2010-09-21T22:52:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Had the October Revolution failed, Russia would have ended up in some kind of authoritarian, fascistic state. How do you know that? Perhaps, if Kerensky had held on to power, the [Constituent Assembly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly) would have been allowed to meet as scheduled and organize a new government. The largest party in the Assembly, and presumably in the new government, being the peasant-based [Socialist-Revolutionaries,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-Revolutionary_Party) their first priority would have been land reform. Does that automatically lead to fascism? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/36 "2010-09-22T01:04:04Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Have you any idea what you’re talking about? There was this little affair called the Russian Revolution, which led not to a Communist state but a moderate social-democracy. I’ll grant it never got going as Lenin stabbed it in the back, but it was founded by real democratic reformers who very nearly turned Russia into a free society. Surely you jest. Murdering the Royal Family comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/37 "2010-09-22T01:24:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > > Have you any idea what you’re talking about? There was this little affair called the Russian Revolution, which led not to a Communist state but a moderate social-democracy. I’ll grant it never got going as Lenin stabbed it in the back, but it was founded by real democratic reformers who very nearly turned Russia into a free society. > > Surely you jest. Murdering the Royal Family comes to mind. You know that the Royal Family was murdered by the Communists, right? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/38 "2010-09-22T03:46:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > Surely you jest. Murdering the Royal Family comes to mind. > > You know that the Royal Family was murdered by the Communists, right? Yes, I thought that’s who we were talking about. The Russian revolution. Rather than the standard insulting “You know…right?” here is your chance to politely fight ignorance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/39 "2010-09-22T04:32:19Z")
If I must fight ignorance, I shall. There was the March Revolution, which **smiling bandit** pointed out “led not to a moderate social-democracy” and “was founded by real democratic reformers who very nearly turned Russia into a free society.” Then there was the October Revolution, where the Bolsheviks took over. Your response to Smiling Bandit’s comment about the March Revolution was “Surely you jest. Murdering the Royal Family comes to mind.”, but the March revolutionaries didn’t do that. It was the Communists who did that. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114/40 "2010-09-22T07:09:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Had the October Revolution failed, Russia would have ended up in some kind of authoritarian, fascistic state. > > How do you know that? Perhaps, if Kerensky had held on to power, the [Constituent Assembly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly) would have been allowed to meet as scheduled and organize a new government. The largest party in the Assembly, and presumably in the new government, being the peasant-based [Socialist-Revolutionaries,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-Revolutionary_Party) their first priority would have been land reform. Does that automatically lead to fascism? My point was that had October failed, then the forces of reaction would have retaken power. I don’t think, given the structure of Russia at the time, the Socialist-Revolutionaries could have maintained power - they would have lost it to one side or the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-soviet-communism-deliver-on-its-promises/554114.md?page=3)