# Did St Paul meet Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697 "2003-08-12T18:31:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/61 "2003-08-13T18:27:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\*If you’re going to ask the question in an intellectually honest manner, you’d do well to take into consideration a few points: > > 1. Luke, writing two _apparently_ inconsistent comments in the _same_ letter, would have looked, well, something less than accurate to his intended audience, to be generous, had _they_ understood the comments to bear a discrepancy. Noting his statements at the beginning of Luke, he declares his intent to “write an orderly account” of those things he had “carefully investigated…from the beginning”. > > 2. We have no record that Paul ever initiated a “correction” consistent with any “inconsistency”, nor any other record mentioning such a discrepancy. This isn’t conclusive, but it is a consideration. > > 3. The existence of this letter, use amongst the early churches, copies made and maintained, all lend credibility to its integrity as a detailed summary of events during Paul’s life shortly before and during his ministry. Again, not conclusive exclusively, but it does bear consideration. > > 4. You presume, it appears, that _no one_ in the earliest years of the church ever caught this _blatant_ error (pat yourself on the back if it feels good) and further presume this supports your declaration of irreconciliable contradiction, when the more likely explanation is directly contrary. It seems eminently more likely that those speaking Greek at the time had a much better understanding of the language than any doper with a handy Strong’s by his side. > > Taking all this into consideration, I am persuaded that those who demand only the “simple” solution regardless of the reasonable argument otherwise, to the contrary, are not interested in an honest discussion of the issue in question. I am, not surprisingly, more willing to listen to those with a considered opinion based on all relevant considerations, and supplemented with solid knowledge of first century Greek. > > Add to this that you are declaring a contradiction based, likely, on little direct knowledge of the Greek language in use at the time. And, you are, subconsciously at least, presuming that no one at any time relative to the letter dating ever recognized the same “error”, which might have resulted in a clarification or further explanatory correspondence, were it needed. \*\* The Bible is full of blatant contradictions. This one is relatively minor. We would not expect a “correction” from Paul since he was dead long before Acts was ever written. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/62 "2003-08-13T23:35:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **You’ve got that reversed. Archer claims that Paul’s companions heard the voice in the accusative (of thing heard) but not in the genitive (of person heard).** Here is what Archer says (or at leasr what **Svt4Him** says that Archer says): “Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise (in which case the verb ‘to hear’ takes the genitive case) and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message (in which case it takes the accusative).” Sounds backwards from what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/63 "2003-08-14T00:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Here is what Archer says (or at leasr what **Svt4Him** says that Archer says): > > “Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise (in which case the verb ‘to hear’ takes the genitive case) and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message (in which case it takes the accusative).” > > Sounds backwards from what you’re saying. \*\* Ok, then Archer got it wrong (or **Svt** copied him wrong. Sorry **Tracer** , I just assumed you got it backwards without checking the original post. _Akouo_ takes the accusative for thing heard and genitive for person heard. The passage in question uses the genitive (_phone_) for “voice,” as it does to indicate indirectly that a person is being heard via a “thing” (the voice). It was my impression that Archer was arguing that because it doesn’t say they couldn’t hear the voice in the accusative (as a thing) that Luke was implying that they did hear the voice but just didn’t understand it. As I said before, I think this is specious but it is also undermined by the fact that Acts 9:7 says that they _did_ hear the voice in the genitive. The genitive case is used in both passages so the contradiction holds. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/64 "2003-08-14T00:05:57Z")
Apos > [@](#): > > Read Cor again: those passages I mentioned DO mention that Paul met Jesus. Please show me where this is. Thanks for listening ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/65 "2003-08-14T00:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beryl\_Mooncalf \* > \*\*Apos > > Please show me where this is. > > Thanks for listening \*\* **1 Corinthians 15:3-8** 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[1] : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[2] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, **8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.**. It doesn’t go into specifics but it implies some sort of visionary experience which would seem to fit the description in Acts. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/66 "2003-08-14T01:20:06Z")
From what I remember, when someone was found guilty of blasphemy (as the Jews regarded early Christians), the guilty would be stoned to death. To throw effective stones, you gotta take off your cloak. And sombody gotta hold these cloaks so they won’t get dirty. Paul was the designated Cloak Holder for such executions. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/67 "2003-08-14T03:23:06Z")
Diogenes the Cynic - Thanks for pointing that out. The conversion of Paul could be one of the most inspiring events of all time. One certainly worthy of publication. One in which Paul was told to witness to othes of what he had seen … But Paul is silent on this, save one very vague reference in his epistle to the church at Corinth Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make **thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;** An Instruction, if you please, telling Paul to TESTIFY to his transformation… And, possibly there is a reference in 1 Cor 15:8 (could just as well refer one of two other events describes in acts, 18: 9 and 23:11 It is just so strange that Paul, never “specifically” mentions it, even after being told by Jesus to do so.to do so. Thanks for helping. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/68 "2003-08-14T03:42:10Z")
To be fair, we don’t know everything that Paul said in his “live” sermons, we only know what he said in letters addressed to established Christian communities. Those letters contained exhortations to continued faith but they were not intended as conversion motivated witnessing. The audience was already converted. I think it’s clear that Paul had _some_ kind of transformative experience. Whether the voice on the road to Damascus was literally it is probably not that important. The basic thrust of his life is the same. He was trying to get Christians out of the synagogues, then _something happened_ (probably while he was headed to Damascus to purge the synagogoues there) and he became a Christian…hell, he became _the_ Christian. It was a significant turn-around, what_ever_ happened. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/69 "2003-08-14T04:05:10Z")
I personally believe it happened exactly as written in the Bible, with the NIV giving a better picture, and haven’t yet seen anything that proves this is an incorrect testimony. “Man will believe anything, as long as it’s not in the Bible.”-Napoleon ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/70 "2003-08-14T04:28:43Z")
To answer the OP, it seems unlikely that Paul ever met the pre-crucifiction Jesus. Paul (then called Saul) is first mentioned at the stoning of Stephen: “And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.” (Acts 7:58 KJV) It says he was a **young** man in that scene. I would take that to mean a man in his late teens or early twenties. That suggests that, at the time of Stephen’s execution, Paul (Saul) was a fairly recent graduate of his religious school. He was born and raised, and probably educated in Tarsus, which was not in Palestine, where Jesus’ ministry took place. Also, being a recent “college” graduate, Paul was naturally bursting with knowledge of Jewish law, and quite eager to put his knowledge to use. I suspect that he was a fairly recent arrival in Jerusalem. His fresh-out-of-school zeal is probably what fueled his desire to eradicate Christians. As to the men travelling with Paul to Damascus - he was going there for the express purpose of arresting Christians. That being the case, it’s a good bet that the men travelling were temple guards - the Jewish police of the day. So being security types, meticulous religious education was probably not high on the list of employment qualifications. They were hired for their brawn, not their brains. Why did Paul not frequently mention his conversion experience in his epistles? As Diogenes alludes, Paul was writing the letters to established churches - churches that he himself founded. He lived in each those cities for periods ranging from a few months to several years after establishing each church. It’s logical to assume that he had already told them of his conversion, and they had had ample opportunity to question him about it. There was no need to regale them with the story in the letters - they already knew the story. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/71 "2003-08-14T13:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*“Man will believe anything, as long as it’s not in the Bible.”-Napoleon \*\* Yeah, well my experience is that people will believe anything generally speaking, but especially if it IS in the Bible. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/72 "2003-08-14T13:31:52Z")
Thanks everyone for the info…I guess I need to brush up on my New Testament. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The Bible is full of blatant contradictions. This one is relatively minor. \*\* Now that you mention it, I hear accusations of biblical contradictions all the time. What, in your opinion, are the most blatant? ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/73 "2003-08-14T14:35:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Know\_Nothing \* > \*\*Now that you mention it, I hear accusations of biblical contradictions all the time. What, in your opinion, are the most blatant? \*\* Answering the hijack - [Here are a few](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). Now you can know “something” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/74 "2003-08-14T14:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Know\_Nothing \* > \*\*Thanks everyone for the info…I guess I need to brush up on my New Testament. > > Now that you mention it, I hear accusations of biblical contradictions all the time. What, in your opinion, are the most blatant? \*\* We’ve had a number of threads on this but I’ll recap some of my favorites: 1.) There are different orders given for the creation story in side by side accounts in Genesis. 2.) In Genesis 6:19, God tells Noah to get two of every animal. In Genesis 7:2 God tells Noah to get _seven_ of every animal. 3.) There are different geneologies given for Jesus by Matthew and Luke. 4.) Matthew and Luke also give different names to the father of Joseph. 5.) Luke says that the sermon on the mount happened on a plain. 6.) Matthew and Mark say that Mary Magdeline went to the empty tomb accompanied by the other Mary. John says that she went there alone. 7.) There are three different versions of Jesus’ last words on the cross. 8.) Matthew says that Judas hung himself. Acts says that his guts exploded in a potter’s field. This is a just a small sampling. There is plenty more. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/75 "2003-08-14T17:15:32Z")
> [@](#): > > He was born and raised, and probably educated in Tarsus, which was not in Palestine, where Jesus’ ministry took place. Also, being a recent “college” graduate, Paul was naturally bursting with knowledge of Jewish law, and quite eager to put his knowledge to use. I suspect that he was a fairly recent arrival in Jerusalem. His fresh-out-of-school zeal is probably what fueled his desire to eradicate Christians. I’ve heard tell that the story of Paul being a Pharisee are mighty suspect, and that if he was working for the high priest, then he’d much more likely have been persecuting Pharisees (though perhaps he specialized in Christians). Paul certainly doesn’t seem to be an expert in Jewish law, nor does he write in the sorts of idioms and structures you would expect from a Pharisee (a training that produces a pretty distinctive set of literary habits). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/76 "2003-08-14T17:39:07Z")
The Jesus Seminar is currently working on an analysis of the life of Paul. It should be quite interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/77 "2003-08-14T17:51:28Z")
I’ve heard it said that he might have been a Roman agent. What are you people’s views/information on that? He was a tentmaker for the Roman army. He did have Roman citizenship, did he not? And the people around him were surprised when they found out, meaning he had kept it secret. Would it be possible he had been persecuting Christians on behalf of the Roman government? After all, they did crucify the leader of the movement, why not go after the followers? Did he then infiltrate the movement and try to turn it from anti-Roman into one that was friendly to the Romans? Any savvy on this idea? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/78 "2003-08-16T05:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard it said that he might have been a Roman agent. What are you people’s views/information on that? Highly unlikely. The most reasonable alternative theory is that he wanted to marry this guy’s daughter. Her father wouldn’t let him unless he became a Pharisee. He tried. He “flunked out” so to speak. He became extremely vindictive and went to work persecuting Pharisees. While doing this, he found that persecuting Christians was a growing new field, and got into that instead. That story doesn’t have too much evidence to go on (but then again, neither does Acts, really) either, but the problem with the Roman angle is that the Romans didn’t really pay much attention to the Christians until later on. Jesus’ story was not exactly an uncommon one from the Roman perspective, so it wasn’t something that sparked any real warning signals until the movement got much bigger and more influential. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/79 "2003-08-16T15:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*Answering the hijack - [Here are a few](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). > > Now you can know “something” 🙂 \*\* I woke up this morning and said to my self, “Self, you know what? That list of biblical contradictions isn’t _nearly_ long enough!” So, [here’s a longer list of biblical contradicitions](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra.html). ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697/80 "2003-08-16T23:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > How so? If I understand what you are implying, then what reason do we have to believe that Paul ever met the author of Luke or read his work? How is it a consideration when Paul would have been far too dead to be checking up tracts for minor errors? Luke and Paul journeyed together on Paul’s second missionary journey: Luke joined him at Troas, as noted in the change in pronoun in Acts 16:10 from _they_ to _we_. In addition, Paul mentions Luke in the closing of Colossians and Philemon, while mentioning in 2 Timothy that Luke is his sole companion at that writing. My point is twofold; one, the puzzling assumption by some that the only information the churches had regarding the events surrounding Paul’s conversion was contained in what we know today as the book of Acts. While we certainly are only speculating regarding the exact substance of Paul’s teachings, it is unrealistic to assume that Paul had not already discussed his conversion experience in detail, specifically as it applied to his ongoing “thorn in the flesh”, and; two, the assumption that Luke “changed” his story after Paul’s death (for what explicit purpose, critics never state) and hoisted a lie upon the very people he seeks to encourage to pursue godly behavior. And, a third point, to boot: the same people expounding upon the Gospel, seeking to impart the commandments of God through His Son Jesus Christ, _purposely_ perpetrating a fraud. Yet these same charges are held to be credible. Amazing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-st-paul-meet-jesus/194697.md?page=5)