# Did Steve Jobs do anything to justify the hype **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795 "2015-09-28T03:47:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/41 "2015-09-30T00:51:42Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > He was a top top notch salesman. Period. > > He was really poor at understanding tech. He didn’t get how much something would really cost or how long it would really take to develop. A lot of his decisions based on this ignorance hurt Apple. Evidence does not bear this out. Certainly, he was not a programmer or hardware engineer, but the notion that he did not development costs or have a general understanding of the technology involved is belied by the fact that the products developed under his tenure have been insanely profitable, and Apple went from the brink of bankruptcy to having a market capitalization twice that of Exxon. > [@](#): > > He was a poor manager. Nasty, inflexible, etc. Again, really hurt Apple. Drove away talented people. He certainly drove away some people, especially in the early days of Apple. It definitely did not drive away the incredibly talented people who learned to work with him, such as Jony Ive, Tim Cook, Phil Schiller, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/42 "2015-09-30T01:10:02Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > Watching the fans rush in to buy the latest iteration of tech they already own is absurd, regardless of whether it’s much better than the competition (it isn’t). So are you saying that the people who buy the competitors’ phones aren’t replacing them every year or two? People are buying a Samsung Galaxy phone and then keeping it for three, four, five years? I doubt that it’s any different in the Android world. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/43 "2015-09-30T02:46:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So are you saying that the people who buy the competitors’ phones aren’t replacing them every year or two? People are buying a Samsung Galaxy phone and then keeping it for three, four, five years? I doubt that it’s any different in the Android world. I’m sure it’s not any different in the Android world. I just a little amused, though, at how different it is in the _ **non** _-smartphone world. I’ve had a Motorola Razr for more than ten years – amazed that the battery still lasts about a week or more between charges. And it has two terrific features that I use a lot: (1) a button that turns it on and off, and (2) a hole that I can talk into, and someone far away can hear me. That’s why it’s called a “phone” – that’s a contraction of “telephone”, young people, and it means “sound at a distance”. It’s a wonderful invention and making it completely mobile and portable is more wonderful still. 😉 Steve Jobs did great things for music with iTunes and the iPod and with the various desktop and laptop platforms and especially with extending the consumer experience into new realms with the iPad. I understand he also did something with phones, but I still can’t figure out what it is. As far as I can tell, it’s something that causes normal human beings to become self-obsessed assholes disconnected from the real world, constantly pecking at something in their hand regardless of any and all circumstances of the real world around them. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/44 "2015-09-30T08:57:13Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > Do you have a cite to back up this bullshit? Steve Jobs told me. Do you have a cite to back up your bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/45 "2015-09-30T12:42:15Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My understanding is he was an asshole to turned down quality medical care for a more treatable form of pancreatic cancer. Apple also doesn’t seem very innovative, all they do is release different forms of the ipod touch, which is all the iphone and ipad are. Their real genius was in marketing to make apple into a status symbol to justify the higher cost over PC and android. Apple company is good at marketing, but their technology doesn’t stand out to me. > > Why is he worshipped, did he do anything to justify it? I struggle with OPs like this. You are asking a question, but are also putting forth a POV striking down the OP question, and you don’t seem open to hearing other points of view. That’s fine; if you think all Jobs did was be a marketing shill, I am not going to try to change your mind. But then why ask the OP? Just start a thread saying “Resolved: Steve Jobs was not all that.” and hang your POV out there. For what it is worth, your OP could not be more incorrect. Steve Jobs’ vision of computer-powered consumer devices, branded to appeal to consumers and lifestyles, and part of a closed-system ecosystem, pervaded his vision of Apple from the start. That vision has been what has led Apple to its current position. I am no Jobs fanboy. He was a jerk on a number of levels. But you must be able to step back and look at the overall arc of what Apple has done to appreciate how pivotal Jobs has been to how we view tech consumer products. If you can’t do that, then you are welcome to your POV, but you are missing the biggest part of the discussion. The folks saying “read the book” are actually saying “Dude, you really don’t know what you are trying to argue. You should consider educating yourself about the history of consumer tech and how Apple fits into that. Isaacson’s book is a decent place to start.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/46 "2015-09-30T13:30:49Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Apple also doesn’t seem very innovative, all they do is release different forms of the ipod touch, which is all the iphone and ipad are. You seem to be implying that they started with the iPod Touch and _then_ released the iPhone (and iPad). That’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/47 "2015-09-30T14:55:28Z")
While not a fan of Mac OS, I do have to say that the quality of the build of their laptops is top notch compared to the normal slew of windows machines I’ve used. So yes marketing, but that marketing allows them to maintain higher quality due to excluding competition allowing them to build it how they would like to see it built. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/48 "2015-09-30T17:21:48Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Meantime, Jobs was building the Next computer, a fine lamented Unix box, much better than the crap SUN was flogging. Too bad it never went anywhere. NeXT probably wouldn’t have developed much differently than it did as OS X, seeing as it was the same guy who ran both. Wikipedia: [**NeXT morphed into OS X**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X). > [@](#): > > OS X, whose X is the Roman numeral for 10 and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple’s purchase of the company in late 1996. The ‘X’ is also used to emphasize the relatedness between OS X and UNIX. [**This**](http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/12/the-legacy-of-next-lives-on-in-os-x/) is a 2012 Ars Technica article on OS X that soon gets into UNIX. > [@](#): > > We consulted several developers with knowledge of both NeXTSTEP and OS X; they universally agreed that one crucial feature of NeXTSTEP that made OS X and iOS what they are today is its underlying UNIX roots. Beneath all the slickly styled windows, icons, scrolling lists, and buttons sits a rock-solid, certified UNIX operating system. > [@](#): > > The Objective-C programming language was used to develop software for the NeXTSTEP operating system, and it carried on to OS X and iOS. > [@](#): > > “Objective-C directly inspired Java and C# and has changed how almost everyone programs, even if they’re not writing for Apple’s machines,” said developer Wil Shipley, who got his start writing software for NeXT computers. "We saw the invention of the fricking World Wide Web on NeXTSTEP. It’s not a coincidence; it was a machine that was a dream to program for.” > > Shipley also noted that several apps we still use today on OS X were inspired by or adapted from software originally developed for the NeXT platform, including Numbers (née Parasheet), Keynote (née Concurrence), Pages, and OmniGraffle (née Diagram!). The article goes on and on. When Jobs returned to Apple, he bought his own company. For Apple’s usual premium price. > [@JustinC](#): > > Jobs on a stage reflecting on how his new product would change everything was swallowed by so many, including most mainstream media, in such a way I could only stand back and wonder how they could be so taken in by the fluff. Fluff. Samsung [**before and after the iPhone**](http://zdnet3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/10/05/abec89f0-4cd6-11e4-b6a0-d4ae52e95e57/resize/770x578/27dfd693ffcd0c1d9e1862713ddeee34/samsung-smartphones-before-after-iphone.png). > [@ftg](#): > > He was a top top notch salesman. Period. > > He was really poor at understanding tech. He didn’t get how much something would really cost or how long it would really take to develop. A lot of his decisions based on this ignorance hurt Apple. > > He was a poor manager. Nasty, inflexible, etc. Again, really hurt Apple. Drove away talented people. > > But he could sell, sell, sell. He’s basically Donald Trump’s half-brother. Yeah, right. See above. The soda-water salesman gave away the farm to Microsoft. But I think it was Woz who said that as a result, everyone using Windows is using a Mac. Well, a pre-OS X Mac and an upside-down, backwards and backward Mac anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/49 "2015-09-30T17:37:32Z")
But… Jobs never created anything that other people weren’t already working on or that wasn’t already in place but to a lesser degree, in other words, he may of been a few years ahead of other people but they already had MP3 and Smartphones. The one thing I think he definitely gets credit for he was the first person to have a strong and clear vision that computers were for everyone to use and not only for technology geeks. But, again, that would of happened with or without him. He was just the first. So, yeah, very over hyped. Also, I realize my comments have been made many times before. I just think they are incredibly accurate after thinking it over since this thread began. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/50 "2015-09-30T17:43:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The doubts that you express were what I had about the iPad. My attitude could have been summed up as “WTF?” That’s because I was thinking in terms of traditional computers and laptops – like, who would want a laptop with the keyboard and mouse removed? And the answer was: no one would, but Jobs had envisioned _an entirely new market_ where computer technology would be used by consumers _in an entirely different way_. That is, the iPad wasn’t a laptop with stuff removed, it was an entirely new kind of product. I doubt I’ve spent a total of 60 minutes using an iPad. What is it that people like about them so much. I hate that it has no keyboard… ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/51 "2015-09-30T17:47:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But… Jobs never created anything that other people weren’t already working on or that wasn’t already in place but to a lesser degree, in other words, he may of been a few years ahead of other people but they already had MP3 and Smartphones. It’s like Henry Ford and the Model T. It took GM to force him to upgrade to the A because the T was primitive crap. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/52 "2015-09-30T17:49:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I did a variety of careful audio tests on this thing, using a variety of sound systems but NOT the iPod earbuds which I hate and don’t fit in my ears anyway. These included the Grado SR-60, an old but wonderful pair of Sony MDR-80s, and a modest but adequate $5K home theater system, in all of which I did the following direct comparisons… Have you tried Pono? what do you think of it? Both the player and the file compression (or lack thereof)? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/53 "2015-09-30T17:53:55Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > It’s like Henry Ford and the Model T. It took GM to force him to upgrade to the A because the T was primitive crap. Well, you have a very good point I think. I guess competition really does drive innovation/improvement… ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/54 "2015-09-30T19:07:56Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > I saw people in Hong Kong using touchscreen phones two years before the first iPhone, I had an iPod which was very nice to use with the scrolling wheel, but hugely expensive and changing the battery was exorbitant. They were being stolen in their thousands and the technology was there to turn them off, but Apple wouldn’t allow that as it would affect their sales. Watching the fans rush in to buy the latest iteration of tech they already own is absurd, regardless of whether it’s much better than the competition (it isn’t). Apple products are emotive and have been very successfully marketed as a desirable, fashionable product within - just - the pockets of most. Jobs on a stage reflecting on how his new product would change everything was swallowed by so many, including most mainstream media, in such a way I could only stand back and wonder how they could be so taken in by the fluff. I used to think Apple were masters at this. then I bought a motorcycle. _Holy shit._ When it comes to marketing and selling a complete lifestyle, Apple can’t hold a candle to Harley-Davidson. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/55 "2015-09-30T22:41:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But… Jobs never created anything that other people weren’t already working on or that wasn’t already in place but to a lesser degree, in other words, he may of been a few years ahead of other people but they already had MP3 and Smartphones. This is true of absolutely any successful inventor. Bell wasn’t the only one working on the telephone. Edison did not make the first electric lightbulb. Ford was not the first to make a gasoline-driven automobile… But all of those people made the first _really_ commercially successful one. And while there’s a certain amount of luck involved in that, it’s incredibly dismissive to ignore it. And Jobs didn’t just do this once. He did it several times. The Macintosh, the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad. In every case, there were existing products in those categories. And, in every case, the Apple version pretty well blew them out of the water in terms of usability and polish. And then all the devices that followed looked _a lot like_ the Apple one. People look at phones now and they think: All phones are basically just a rectangular touch screen. Where’s the genius in that? [Here’s what smartphones looked like before the iPhone](https://www.quora.com/There-were-smartphones-before-iPhone-like-Blackberry-Nokia-N-series-etc-What-made-the-iPhone-so-successful-with-customers). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/56 "2015-09-30T22:56:27Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > And Jobs didn’t just do this once. He did it several times. The Macintosh, the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad. > > In every case, there were existing products in those categories. And, in every case, the Apple version pretty well blew them out of the water in terms of usability and polish. And then all the devices that followed looked _a lot like_ the Apple one. Yeah, that is definitely true. LOL, I remember my old Dell MP3 I had when the Ipod came out. It’s like comparing a Honda Civic to BMW. The Ipod had style and class. And was very easy to use. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/57 "2015-10-01T02:01:01Z")
People have mentioned how the the iTunes music store revolutionized music sales (Apple is the world’s largest music retailer now), but I don’t think anyone has mentioned the Jobs-created Apple stores, which revolutionized retail sales. Apple stores are the [highest-grossing](http://fortune.com/2015/03/13/apples-holiday-top-10-retailers-iphone/)retail stores in the US, exceeding the second-higest (Tiffany’s) by 50%. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/58 "2015-10-01T03:26:42Z")
I read the Issacson book as well as the Pixar book, and I came away disliking Jobs even more than before. You cannot truly know the depth of my loathing of Steve Jobs until you to have had to open an iPod or an iPhone to work on it. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/59 "2015-10-01T10:54:00Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > I read the Issacson book as well as the Pixar book, and I came away disliking Jobs even more than before. You cannot truly know the depth of my loathing of Steve Jobs until you to have had to open an iPod or an iPhone to work on it. Lots of folks remembered in history were jerks, or evil, or petty or otherwise humans with obvious frailties. That’s not what this is about. The OP is stating that they don’t see that Jobs really was the pivotal actor in the success of Apple. Which is incorrect on a variety of levels as discussed in thread. Jerk? Oh yeah. Historically famous for valid reasons? Oh yeah. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795/60 "2015-10-01T13:32:29Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Lots of folks remembered in history were jerks, or evil, or petty or otherwise humans with obvious frailties. That’s not what this is about. The OP is stating that they don’t see that Jobs really was the pivotal actor in the success of Apple. Which is incorrect on a variety of levels as discussed in thread. > > Jerk? Oh yeah. > Historically famous for valid reasons? Oh yeah. My view of the computer industry encompasses the entire history of Apple, and I’ve never been particularly impressed by the company or it’s products. So I can agree that he was the pivotal figure behind Apple, I disagree on the importance of Apple’s products. _Importance_, not success. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-steve-jobs-do-anything-to-justify-the-hype/732795.md?page=4)