# Did STTNG have a smugly superior tone about Federation/human culture or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308 "2012-08-12T22:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/21 "2012-08-13T11:30:40Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The smugness was dialed way down after the first season. By the fifth, they even had the balls to introduce characters that were dissatisfied with the Federation (the Maquis.) IIRC, the Maquis were never introduced in TNG, although the seeds were planted in the seventh season episode when they agreed to leave the Native American settlement on the planet that had just been traded to Cardassia because they wouldn’t agree to leave. That was season 7, wasn’t it? Edited to add - No, there were Maquis in TNG after all, because Ro Laren went undercover with them in her last episode. I think it was after they’d been introduced in Deep Space 9 though. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/22 "2012-08-13T11:38:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I wonder if they’ll ever have the guts to do a series based on the premise that humans are a minor race in some more advanced races’ empire, and that’s how it **should** be, because that race’s culture really **is** superior morally, etc., and any human rebels against that empire are the bad guys. Do you r’lyeh think something like that could ever be popular? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/23 "2012-08-13T15:06:00Z")
Yep. Especially in early seasons—things got better after Roddenberry got kicked upstairs, and other writers (such as Maurice Hurley, it seems) left. [SFDebris’ reviews](http://sfdebris.com/) provide a bit of behind-the-scenes info about these, as well as critiquing the episodes themselves. It’s interesting, and a bit humbling, even disquieting, to see how a work can really grow beyond what it’s creator had envisioned; and how it can blossom into something roundly regarded as much better only after it’s taken out of the original creator’s hands. I’d go as far as saying that a Trek continuing under the much stronger control of Roddenberry would have been really fascinating to behold—and bearing strikingly little resemblance to what we’ve come to know as “Star Trek.” And probably not for the best. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/24 "2012-08-13T15:15:39Z")
I guess smugness is subjective, but from my 20th century point of view, various characters drop a comment that seems smug to me. From the first season episode “The Neutral Zone” (three 20th century humans are thawed out, Picard must deal with touchy Romulans): > [@](#): > > **Lt. Commander Data** : They are the most unusual humans I have ever encountered. > **Commander William T. Riker** : Well, from what I’ve seen of our guests, there’s not much to redeem them. Makes one wonder how our species survived the 21st century. ^ Riker seems like an ass there. > [@](#): > > Capt. Picard: A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We’ve eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We’ve grown out of our infancy. So, this raises a question. If the technology (replicator?) and infrastructure is sufficient to eliminate hunger and “want”, the society “matures” to something better, then what have the humans really learned? They didn’t change emotionally, right? I mean, it’s one thing to teach your kids the value of hard work and a dollar earned, and another to just hand them there luxuries unearned, right? Doesn’t replicator tech make luxuries “unearned”? (Who would appreciate the hard work that went in to cooking a gourmet meal, or painting a new Mona Lisa when you can just dial one up on the machine.) If that infrastruture is disrupted for an extended period, do the humans “revert” back to their infantile ways, or not? Is there any indications in the series that Humans have “learned” anything? > [@](#): > > Ralph Offenhouse: You’ve got it all wrong. It has never been about possessions. It’s about power. > Capt. Picard: Power to do what? > Ralph Offenhouse: To control your life, your destiny. > Capt. Picard: That kind of control is an illusion. > Ralph Offenhouse: Really? I’m here, aren’t I? I should be dead. But I’m not… WTF? Picard doesn’t think trying to control your own life [path] is worth striving towards? Does that seem in character? If he does, then why is he giving Offenhouse so much flak? Seems to me Picard is annoyed (as he was through most of the episode) with Offenhouse, and probably looks down on this 400 year old barbarian who intrudes on his finely tuned starship. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/25 "2012-08-13T15:21:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The real problem is whole [Planet of Hats](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) thing. Klingons are warriors-and-nothing-else, Ferenghi are merchants-and-nothing-else, Vulcans are scientists-and-nothing-else, etc. Only humans seem to have a well-rounded culture. I agree with this. Not only were the other species monotone, they were cripplingly flawed because of their culture (belligerent, greedy, oppressive, etc) and needed the Federation to moderate in one way or another. Of course the smuggest of all were the betazoids. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/26 "2012-08-13T15:27:14Z")
It wasn’t as bad as Voyager often was, with Tuvok’s being a Vulcan being regarded as some sort of disability at best. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/27 "2012-08-13T15:44:46Z")
I can’t remember or find the exact quote, but there’s a scene in the Voyager episode “Flashback” (the one where Tuvok and Janeway “remember” his experience working under Sulu on the Excelsior during ST:VI) where Tuvok complains about how humans think their way of life is the best. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/28 "2012-08-13T16:03:55Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve thought for a while now that the next Star Trek series should have the Federation as the bad guys. After the finale for Voyager, Federation engineers should be able to reverse engineer much of the advanced tech from the ship. Starfleet gets beefed up with major upgrades; it steamrolls its enemies, and then steamrolls its not-so-enemies. Starfleet takes control of Federation politics ( **you may have noticed that most of the admirals in Starfleet are corrupt** ). Fast forward a few decades, and the Federation is The Evil Empire. It was also mentioned in one of Diane Duane’s TOS novels that being a starship captain tends to drive one stark raving mad… Janice Lester, the guy on the Nazi planet, the guy on the prison planet… everybody who ever left the center seat was a certified nutcase. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/29 "2012-08-13T16:30:14Z")
Oh trust me, it’s not just you. Quite frankly, the best thing that ever happened to the Trek franchise was when Roddenberry died, because that freed up the writers to write stories where the Federation isn’t perfect, and the main characters aren’t all holier-than-thou assholes. Unfortunately, they mostly regressed in _Voyager_, wasting about 95% of the concept’s potential. (No significant conflict between the Maquis crew and the regular crew, no sign of the shortages that should have been an everpresent part of the journey, not even any grumbling about a captain who could be rather heavy-handed and unlikeable sometimes.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/30 "2012-08-13T16:36:02Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It was also mentioned in one of Diane Duane’s TOS novels that being a starship captain tends to drive one stark raving mad… _ **Janice Lester, the guy on the Nazi planet, the guy on the prison planet** _… everybody who ever left the center seat was a certified nutcase. Since when did any of them serve in Starfleet, much less in the captain’s seat??? 😕 Most Trek novels suck big-time anyway! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/31 "2012-08-13T16:47:06Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > _ **the guy on the prison planet** _ If you’re referring to Garth of Izar, it was an insane asylum, not a prison, and he went mad from injuries sustained during a rescue mission, not from the strain of command. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/32 "2012-08-13T16:52:02Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve thought for a while now that the next Star Trek series should have the Federation as the bad guys. After the finale for Voyager, Federation engineers should be able to reverse engineer much of the advanced tech from the ship. Starfleet gets beefed up with major upgrades; it steamrolls its enemies, and then steamrolls its not-so-enemies. Starfleet takes control of Federation politics (you may have noticed that most of the admirals in Starfleet are corrupt). Fast forward a few decades, and the Federation is The Evil Empire. Nah, that’s already [old hat.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror,_Mirror_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/33 "2012-08-13T16:56:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The real problem is whole [Planet of Hats](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) thing. Klingons are warriors-and-nothing-else, Ferenghi are merchants-and-nothing-else, Vulcans are scientists-and-nothing-else, etc. Only humans seem to have a well-rounded culture. In fairness–each of those archetypes has an episode or two that breaks it down somewhat and contextualizes it. These characterizations started as a way to distinguish alien races from humans–to _increase_ diversity. It may be something of a ‘wank,’ but IMO the best way to watch these depictions is to see them as the human-eye-view stereotypes of macro-cultures as potentially variable as ours, but with different centers. Recall also that each of those cultures has their own stereotype of humans. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/34 "2012-08-13T16:56:23Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Fast forward a few decades, and the Federation is The Evil Empire. They wrapped that up decades ago in a single episode — Spock With a Goatee. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/35 "2012-08-13T19:28:50Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Oh trust me, it’s not just you. Quite frankly, the best thing that ever happened to the Trek franchise was when Roddenberry died, because that freed up the writers to write stories where the Federation isn’t perfect, and the main characters aren’t all holier-than-thou assholes. However, compare TNG to TOS. Q, the representative of a superior culture in TNG is a child, who Picard outsmarts and yells at. In TOS Kirk is mostly humbled when meeting truly superior beings - like in **Arena** , where they tell him that humanity has promise. Most especially in **Errand of Mercy** where Kirk finds himself shoulder to shoulder with a Klingon objecting to not being allowed to have a war - to Spock’s great amusement. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/36 "2012-08-13T19:32:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > That was the whole story arc of the show, though. > > In the very first episode, Q tells Picard that the Federation’s claim to have evolved into a more enlightened state was complete BS, and he says the same thing in the very last episode. Only Picard, as a result of his explorations and experiences, is able to open his mind enough to pass Q’s ‘test.’ And Q tossed the Enterprise up against a Borg ship to teach Picard some humility - and also to give the Federation a heads up about what was on the way. But that was a rare exception to the general smugness. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/37 "2012-08-13T19:52:50Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > One of the reasons they were exploring space was because they thought they’d solved all of Earth’s and humanity’s problems already, now it was time for them to fix the rest of the Universe so it operated their way. > > Let’s face it, it’s probably what we really would do. It was Kirk & company who were trying to fix the rest of the universe (or at least the planets that had dilithium). At least two members of the Enterprise-D’s command staff were willing to allow a sentient species to be completely exterminated by a natural disaster when it was within their power to save them, and none of them were surprised that Picard would consider doing so. They E-D gave more than lip service to the Prime Directive; they followed it to a ridiculous and immoral level. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/38 "2012-08-13T19:54:21Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Star Trek (TOS) was described by its creator as “_Wagon Train_ to the stars!” The stories were fairly formula, as TV goes, just some tech gimmicks to spice up the range of material. TNG was not hugely different, they were each contemporary culture sanitized and projected onto a larger stage. Hey, I can jump in my starship and drive on over to Rigel is not very realistic or even very inventive. For all their creativity, the shows ended up being pretty mundane and unoriginal. Even _Red Dwarf_ was more interesting. I have asked Janitorial to clean up after you, but in the future please use an adult diaper if you feel you will be unable to always make it to the restroom. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/39 "2012-08-13T19:56:47Z")
The best episode of any _Star Trek_ was when they merged _Wrath of Khan_ into _Trekkies_ and ended up with _Galaxy Quest_ ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/40 "2012-08-13T20:37:33Z")
> [@For You](#): > > The best episode of any _Star Trek_ was when they merged _Wrath of Khan_ into _Trekkies_ and ended up with _Galaxy Quest_ You don’t think much of the series,\*\* For You\*\*; you made your point twice now. If you don’t care to discuss the series, stay out of the thread. Don’t stay it in just to bash it. This is threadshitting and it is not allowed here. For a full rundown on rules and various etiquette issues, peruse the various stickied threads and Registration Agreement in the [About This Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=2) forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308.md?page=3)