# Did STTNG have a smugly superior tone about Federation/human culture or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308 "2012-08-12T22:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/61 "2012-08-15T02:44:13Z")
One of the smug attitudes I noticed was that cultures who had, shall we say, stricter social relationships than “they” did were considered backward or hateful. ["Star Trek: The Next Generation" The Outrageous Okona (TV Episode 1988) - IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708816/) That episode. “The Outrageous Okona” had a character that was alleged to have got a girl pregnant out of wedlock. Her father considered her shamed, according to his culture’s lights, and wanted Okona punished. Counselor Troi was kind of condescending about people who thought like that. But why is her attitude better than the other? ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/62 "2012-08-15T03:39:08Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Not sure what you are referencing. Could you give some examples? He’s referencing almost everything sci fi pre-1980s. “Stupid/puny humans” was practically a mantra. > [@antonio107](#): > > [This Episode](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Neutral_Zone_(episode)) was a notable exception for me. And the one with Mark Twain. Basically, whenever they smugly proclaim that they’ve stomped out poverty and want and sadness, and that they don’t need currency Those claims always gave me a :rolleyes: and the BS flag flying. For a species who no longer have poverty or greed or want etc we sure seemed to see a lot of examples or glimpses of it and plenty of the same “negative” emotions which have always plagued mankind. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/63 "2012-08-15T14:33:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > When TOS ran it was the middle of the Vietnam war, and the consequences of meddling were all too clear. The one episode clearly about Vietnam was very ambivalent. If you are referring to “A private little war” (Feds & Klingons arming their proxies with flintlocks), I’m not sure it’s accurate to say “ambivalant”. Here’s a quote: > [@](#): > > **Dr. McCoy** : I don’t have a solution, but furnishing them firearms is certainly not the answer! > **Capt. Kirk** : Bones, do you remember the twentieth century brush wars on the Asian continent? Two giant powers involved, much like the Klingons and ourselves. Neither side felt that they could pull out? > **Dr. McCoy** : Yes, I remember. It went on bloody year after bloody year! > **Capt. Kirk** : But what would you have suggested? That one side arm its friends with an overpowering weapon? Mankind would never have lived to travel space if they had. No, the only solution is what happened back then: balance of power. > **Dr. McCoy** : And if the Klingons give their side even more? > **Capt. Kirk** : Then we arm our side with exactly that much more. A balance of power - the trickiest, most difficult, dirtiest game of them all, but the only one that preserves both sides! Kirk seems to be arguing in favor of the policy. He does express some sadness about the loss of innocence in the indigenous culture during the episode, but I don’t think he’s ambivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/64 "2012-08-15T14:58:21Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > He’s referencing almost everything sci fi pre-1980s. “Stupid/puny humans” was practically a mantra. … Of aliens who invariably went on to have their asses kicked by the humans. IOW, they’re blatant examples of exactly what he says TNG is a remedy to. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/65 "2012-08-15T15:10:39Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > … Of aliens who invariably went on to have their asses kicked by the humans. IOW, they’re blatant examples of exactly what he says TNG is a remedy to. … I borked this sentence in editing. \>\_\< Blatant examples of what he says TNG does in remedy to what they supposedly do. … I hope that’s clear. v\_v ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/66 "2012-08-15T16:32:51Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > Those claims always gave me a :rolleyes: and the BS flag flying. For a species who no longer have poverty or greed or want etc we sure seemed to see a lot of examples or glimpses of it and plenty of the same “negative” emotions which have always plagued mankind. That’s how I always felt. To be fair, most people today consider themselves superior to people of centuries past, and I strongly suspect that people from the 18th or 19th century watching a play about us would probably have a similar :rolleyes: response to our attitude about them. Still, it would great fun to see some alien point out Picard how totally stupid and groundless humanity’s superior attitude is, and to see Picard storm off in a huff because he really can’t justify his position. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/67 "2012-08-15T16:51:14Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > That’s how I always felt. To be fair, most people today consider themselves superior to people of centuries past, and I strongly suspect that people from the 18th or 19th century watching a play about us would probably have a similar :rolleyes: response to our attitude about them. > > Still, it would great fun to see some alien point out Picard how totally stupid and groundless humanity’s superior attitude is, and to see Picard storm off in a huff because he really can’t justify his position. That almost happened in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. But among the Feds at the dinner table, only Spock and Kirk seemed to not get whooshed by the point the Klingons were making. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/68 "2012-08-15T16:56:59Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > It was one of the basic attitudes behind colonialism, saving the savages from their savagery. Take up the human’s burden Gather the best ye breed - Kipling of Omicron IV ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/69 "2012-08-15T18:17:33Z")
I realize it was probably not the show’s intention, but I like to think of TNG’s “smug” tone as being the outcome of a referendum on Picard’s humanity rather than on humanity’s humanity. This I think is somewhat an accident of choosing to hire a very competent Shakespearean actor to portray Picard. You can tell that from the beginning the idea was to have a more measured, intellectual and philosophical captain, but I’m not sure the writers knew from the beginning just how “deep” a persona Patrick Stewart would come to project. He ended up being a projection and representative of what the writers wanted future’s humanity to have become, as he alone as a character managed to represent it better than the rest of the universe they created. That this would happen even seems evident from the start, when “Humanity” was put to the test by Q, and Picard as defendant was literally a representative for humanity, rising to the challenge of championing its evolution, but in so doing ironically revealing his own thoughtful passion in a way that is so satisfying to the viewer (and presumably to Q) that it somewhat dims by comparison the humanity of his fellow 24th century humans who, Q is correct, do indeed suffer many of the same primitive vestiges that have always plagued us. And this pattern repeats itself over and over again in the show (especially in confrontations with Q). Humans in general are not so evolved, at least not nearly so, as Picard is portrayed by Stewart to be. So I think the smugness is somewhat justified, at least to the extent that the many admirers of Picard are correct. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/70 "2012-08-15T18:44:26Z")
No, Picard was full of smug. He was no paragon of virtue. He was occasionally subject to the biases humans have. For example, feeling that allowing a species to die was the best way to be faithful to the intent of the Prime Directive. (Stubbornly adhering to the letter of the law.) Lecturing the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians on how to handle various internal affairs, while demanding that they stay out of Federation ones. His “Captain Ahab” obsession with the Borg, as highlighted in the movie “First Contact”. His inability (or unwillingness) to look beyond the surface (youth) of Wesley, and children in general. His poor treatment of Oppenhouse. His poor treatment of that roguish smuggler guy (smuggling a girl over to see her boyfriend on the next planet), all based on what turned out to be pre-supposed assesments of their character based on whatever stereotype he slotted them in to. Ditto the Ferengi. He loses his temper with Q on more than one occasion. (At least he never _slugged_ Q. 😃 ) He was arrogant when Q tried to warn him that there were dangers out in the galaxy that humans might not be ready for. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/71 "2012-08-15T18:53:26Z")
He was by no means perfect, and I might take issue with some of your points. His issue with children was a bit strange (although I find it somewhat adorable). But please, let’s leave the movies out of this! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/72 "2012-08-15T19:11:59Z")
I shouldn’t be surprised to find other Trekkers here, but it is pleasant to see genuine discussion about the Trek universe. I find it telling that General Chang describes Star Fleet as a ‘Humans first’ organization. Now, of course, it is much easier to film a story when the majority of the actors are human or humanoid. That is why the early versions of Klingons looked so human. It was (primarily) a TV show for goodness sake, not a giant intellectual treatise on interstellar politics and culture. But, the founding species of the United Federation of Planets were all humanoid and relatively easy to represent. Why don’t we see more Andorians until _Enterprise_? Why so few Tellarites? They are both aggressive species who had invested a lot into the Federation and, one supposes, had their own ships. But, interspecies relations among Federation members should have been a highlight of the new governing body. It wasn’t. Not until _Enterprise_ and even then it was handled… suboptimally. What we get is an impression that Humans dominate the Federation. Based upon the many (too many?) novels, this is a less warranted impression, but nevertheless it is as if the writers didn’t expect their audience to enjoy stories about alien species. We get quite a bit about Vulcan, but almost nothing about Andor or Tellar. In fact, are there ANY stories focused on the Tellarites? Yes, I know they resemble nothing so much as bipedal boars, but why the disdain and dismissal? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/73 "2012-08-15T19:42:14Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > But, the founding species of the United Federation of Planets were all humanoid and relatively easy to represent. Why don’t we see more Andorians until _Enterprise_? Why so few Tellarites? Heh. In another Star Trek thread, I fan wanked thusly: Here you have the Humans, fresh out of World War III/Eugenics Wars, with who knows how many cities dying in nuclear fire. (Spock says 600 million dead in a TOS episode.) In the movie “First Contact”, we see a leading astro-theoretical-physicist [Zephram Cochrane] and his Chief Engineer (Lily) seeming to live in what appears to be run down conditions, dressed in raggety clothes, implying that poverty and “want” still exist. They think the Borg attack was someones [another human faction] attack satellite, implying that the fear of war was still not far from their minds. FTL drive becomes a provable and practical fact, and suddenly the Humans are thrust into a much bigger stage. This may have had an effect of a species wide “epiphany moment”. I think human condition improves drastically (possibly aided by contact with Vulcans) within a generation, invigorated by a new hope for the future, and by the wonder and challenge of exploring deep space in person. The Vulcans (and the Tellerites and Andorians) have been in space for centuries by this point. Maybe the Human’s enthusiasm was infectious (as viewed by the Andorians), or maybe they thought it was quaint (as viewed by the Vulcans). But anywho, the Humans go exploring bumping into things, learning on the job. Bumping into other star faring species, and getting into short conflicts with them. Conflict with the Romulans and Klingons are specifically mentioned in various points in film/TV episodes. The role the Vulcans/Andorians/Tellerites in these wars is not explained. It’s entirely possible the older species stayed out of the fighting, at least at first. The TV series “Enterprise” implies that the threat of hostile interstellar species (the Xindi and the Romulans) may lead to greater wars, especially if each planet is picked off one by one. Also, in the series, we see that the various worlds learn that they can indeed cooperate to some extent with each other. So, the Humans suggest some kind of Interstellar Galactic Alliance. The Vulcans suggest a more… restrained name for the cooperative union. It’s possible that the older Founding Member species were more than happy to let the plucky and idealistic Humans take the brunt of the [del]casualties[/del] danger (while exploring and fighting wars) as part of this new “StarFleet”, since the Humans seemed so eager to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/74 "2012-08-16T17:38:04Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Yea you’re right, god that episode made me so angry! Picard saying he has done damage to their culture, WHAT?! They would have been dead! At least this episode had the excuse that it would have been almost impossible to beam a whole planet on board one ship, in others the planet killing disaster was nothing more than a few minutes of work for the Enterprise. That episode always infuriated me. Especially in light of at least one TOS episode (“The Paradise Syndrome,” I think–the one with the space Indians), in which the original Enterprise was on an clearly mandated-by-Command mission to save a primitive culture that had jack diggly to offer the Federation, and Kirk and Spock were willing to risk the ship itself and crew for that, on account of not being jackasses. I love how the Fed can’t distinguish between cultural imperialism and stopping a world killing disaster. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/75 "2012-08-16T17:59:03Z")
So… New Internet Meme: _Picard is a Dick_ ---
**Author:** ![TaoPilot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TaoPilot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaoPilot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/76 "2012-08-17T00:09:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So… New Internet Meme: _Picard is a Dick_ Haha, I’ve been saying that one for a while. Remember the episode when the crew thought Geordie and Ro were dead? Picard tells the story of when he first met Geordie… they were on a shuttle together, and Picard makes an off-hand remark about the engine efficiency. Geordie stayed up all night to fix it, which impressed Picard so much he knew he wanted him on his next command. Yeah, that does sound like someone you’d want on your Engineering staff… but he makes Geordie the pilot?? I’ve considered writing a story where Geordie is all ready to start on the Enterprise D thinking he’ll be an engineer, only to find out he’s just going to fly the ship, which is easy enough that a child eventually replaces him. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/77 "2012-08-17T00:21:38Z")
> [@TaoPilot](#): > > Haha, I’ve been saying that one for a while. > > Remember the episode when the crew thought Geordie and Ro were dead? Picard tells the story of when he first met Geordie… they were on a shuttle together, and Picard makes an off-hand remark about the engine efficiency. Geordie stayed up all night to fix it, which impressed Picard so much he knew he wanted him on his next command. Yeah, that does sound like someone you’d want on your Engineering staff… but he makes Geordie the pilot?? I’ve considered writing a story where Geordie is all ready to start on the Enterprise D thinking he’ll be an engineer, only to find out he’s just going to fly the ship, which is easy enough that a child eventually replaces him. I’ll fanwank it. Starfleet regulations required that the chief engineer on a ship of _Enterprise’s_ class be at least a full lieutenant, while also requiring that a lieutenant junior grade (Geordi’s rank at the beginning of the series) serve a certain minimum time in that rank before being promoted, and Geordi had not yet reached that rank. Because the chief engineer is also supposed to be in the line of command, CEs are further required to work a variety of bridge and operations jobs. So Picard _couldn’t_ give Geordi the CE’s job yet; he had the brains but not the credentials. Instead he gave Geordi a job that would let him fulfill the experience requirement while letting him serve out his last year as a lieutenant j.g. Meanwhile he gave the chief engineer’s job first to an officer he knew was planning to retire in a year. (Yes, I know there were at least three different chief engineers in the first season: , a blond woman whose name I don’t know, some guy named Argyle, and the irritating Lynch. Let’s say that both the blond had the job first and retired more quickly than planned; Argyle was a temporary replacement as he took a job at the Academy or something; and Lynch got canned for being irritating.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/78 "2012-08-17T05:42:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > A blond woman whose name I don’t know. > **[MacDougal](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/MacDougal)** > > Lieutenant Commander MacDougal was one of the chief engineers aboard the USS Enterprise-D in 2364. After the Enterprise crew became infected with the polywater intoxication virus, causing them to lose control of their ability to inhibit their... ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/79 "2012-08-17T05:43:09Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Well, William Shatner is Canadian … 😃 Yeah, but Kirk was from Iowa. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308/80 "2012-08-17T05:46:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Kirk seems to be arguing in favor of the policy. He does express some sadness about the loss of innocence in the indigenous culture during the episode, but I don’t think he’s ambivalent. Kirk may be arguing in favor of it, but McCoy is definitely not. Hence the aforementioned ambivalence of the _episode_, not the good Captain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sttng-have-a-smugly-superior-tone-about-federation-human-culture-or-not/631308.md?page=5)