# Did sub-Saharan Africa really not have wheels or written languages before Europeans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007 "2017-08-18T21:29:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/21 "2017-08-21T17:57:25Z")
Tipi poles were only used when dragged by horses. Dogs had to have special, smaller poles that were only used for the travois-- they wouldn’t be able to drag tipi poles. Of course, the horses were only available after Europeans arrived. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/22 "2017-08-21T18:18:07Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > Like you said - it needs draft animals to really increase it’s usefulness. No horses or oxen or donkeys in the Americas. There were llamas, but they aren’t suited. Bison never got domesticated. Are there any animals you can think of that would be “missed opportunities” in that regard? Humans. They had lots of them. Rickshaws, and especially wheelbarrows. The who thing about “they didnt use wheels as they didnt have good draft animals” falls apart once you think of wheelbarrows. Not to mention the wheeled plow. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/23 "2017-08-21T19:00:35Z")
An interesting idea. :dubious: However, I rather doubt that these less developed parts of the world would have been impressed by invaders with companies of wheelbarrow pushing troops rather than horses and cavalry. ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/24 "2017-08-21T19:46:07Z")
The wheelbarrow we know today, with the load balanced on or around a near-central wheel, seems to be unknown in Europe before the 19. century. The Chinese had it in the first or second century, but it was certainly not obvious. They had small one-wheeled carts in Europe, but they were only good for short distances and low weight, as the load was not balanced. See the Wikipedia article for drawings of these. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/25 "2017-08-21T20:14:07Z")
Carthage had writing centuries BCE. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/26 "2017-08-21T20:22:29Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Carthage had writing centuries BCE. But hardly Sub-Saharan as the op was asking about. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/27 "2017-08-21T20:27:34Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > But hardly Sub-Saharan as the op was asking about. True. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/28 "2017-08-21T20:40:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Humans. They had lots of them. > > Rickshaws, and especially wheelbarrows. The who thing about “they didnt use wheels as they didnt have good draft animals” falls apart once you think of wheelbarrows. Not to mention the wheeled plow. But they aren’t nearly as useful as carts, etc. pulled by draft animals (in terms of load carried, etc.). And if the usefulness doesn’t justify the “expenditure” (roads, etc.), then there’s not a great deal of advantage. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/29 "2017-08-21T20:44:57Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > But they aren’t nearly as useful as carts, etc. pulled by draft animals (in terms of load carried, etc.). And if the usefulness doesn’t justify the “expenditure” (roads, etc.), then there’s not a great deal of advantage. But small carts are useful on farms. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/30 "2017-08-21T20:50:42Z")
In parts of Nigeria, they used the Nsibidi, an ideographic (as in, one symbol represents one concept) written language, from as early as the third century BC. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/31 "2017-08-21T20:53:46Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > But they aren’t nearly as useful as carts, etc. pulled by draft animals (in terms of load carried, etc.). And if the usefulness doesn’t justify the “expenditure” (roads, etc.), then there’s not a great deal of advantage. You can use wheelbarrows without roads. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/32 "2017-08-22T00:54:22Z")
A wheel is not simply magically useful. Its a great invention some times, others not so much. making a wheel of sufficient size as to be useful moving around open country is an expenditure of time and resources that maybe is simply not worth the effort. A wheel that does not fall apart is kind of a complicated thing to make. If you are not moving much, it is hardly worth the effort, why bother expending the time and resources to create something that wont be terribly useful to you? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/33 "2017-08-22T01:48:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Tipi poles were only used when dragged by horses. Dogs had to have special, smaller poles that were only used for the travois-- they wouldn’t be able to drag tipi poles. Of course, the horses were only available after Europeans arrived. Precolonial Africa had horses, but my understanding is they were luxury items reserved for military use and as prestige items (same as in India, unlike in Europe) rather than as agricultural labour or standard means of transport (Africa and India used oxen in place of horses). I’m not sure if that’s because of tropical disease pressure or because of the lack of the kind of feed that horses need, but it seems as though they were more difficult to raise in tropical environments than they were in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/34 "2017-08-22T01:49:18Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > In parts of Nigeria, they used the Nsibidi, an ideographic (as in, one symbol represents one concept) written language, from as early as the third century BC. This is really fascinating, do you have links where I can find out more? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/35 "2017-08-22T02:00:29Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This is really fascinating, do you have links where I can find out more? [Nsibidi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsibidi). It’s age is controversial, but it does seem quite possible it may at least pre-date the penetration of Arabic. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/36 "2017-08-22T03:48:35Z")
Also note that devices are adapted to the environment. The rickshaw could be made precisely with advanced metal woodworking tools; Eventually with bicycle manufactured metal parts and bearings. The wheels were large but thin - large to reduce the work of going over somewhat irregular paving stones, and thing because on pavement (as opposed to soft surfaces) there was not significant rolling resistance. It’s not something that less advanced, less rich societies could just “whip up” when someone wanted to ease their work burden. Creating axles, for example, takes either a long time and careful work by hand, or a fairly large lathe. Certainly rural farmers are not going to make many of them. Note the Romans created a network of paved roads, not just for marching armies but also for the supply carts that followed. The problem for any wheeled traffic other than a desert environment is mud. he quality of roads across Europe during the age of coach travel is legendary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/37 "2017-08-22T04:18:22Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > A wheel is not simply magically useful. > > Its a great invention some times, others not so much. > > making a wheel of sufficient size as to be useful moving around > open country is an expenditure of time and resources that maybe is simply not worth the effort. > A wheel that does not fall apart is kind of a complicated thing to make. > > If you are not moving much, it is hardly worth the effort, why bother expending the time and resources to create something that wont be terribly useful to you? Because the wheelbarrow, even the early Euro version, is terribly useful. And what time and effort to create? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/38 "2017-08-22T06:29:30Z")
As others point out, the utility of wheeled wagons, and even the choice among two-, four- and six-wheelers, depends on terrain. And note that the pivoting front axle (which makes it easier to steer 4-wheelers) didn’t appear until thousands of years after the first 4-wheel wagons. While two-wheeled wagons may have been more popular in Greece and the Balkans, [QUOTE=Barry Cunliffe] The four-wheeled vehicle that gave the Yamnaya pastoralist their ability to lead herds deep into the steppe uplands [from about 3500 BC] facilitated the crucial change from sedentary to mobile pastoralism … [/QUOTE] The economy and terrain of the Indo-European-speaking Yamnaya people benefited more from the wheeled wagon than other early people; wagons are displayed prominently in their elites’ graves. The Yamnaya’s oxen-drawn wagons and, eventually, horse-drawn wagons and horse-back riding skills, associated with an individualist socio-economic system in sharp contrast to the more communal cultures of sedentary farmers, led to a rapid expansion of these Indo-European speakers into Central and Western Europe. The rest is [del]history[/del] pre-history. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/39 "2017-08-22T14:53:50Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > For long distance caravans, even the places that knew of wheels tended to just load up camels or horses instead. > > I suspect the lack of wheel use was more the environment than the lack of knowledge. Arab caravans (and Islam) spread all over the north-middle of Africa, so it’s not like nobody knew the concept by the middle ages - and more likely well before that. The historical record shows that already in the late Roman empire, in the regions where the camel survived well, the wheeled carts had disappeared as the camel was more efficient than the cart drawn by the ox or the horse. The simplistic idea of wheel = always more efficient / better does not survive the historical record and its evidence. The arab caravans are the artefact of the evoluation on the already decided economic efficiency in the late roman period before the conquests. > [@Weisshund](#): > > A wheel is not simply magically useful. > > Its a great invention some times, others not so much. > > … > > If you are not moving much, it is hardly worth the effort, why bother expending the time and resources to create something that wont be terribly useful to you? but it is not just ‘not moving much’ it is a comparative efficiency at a certain technological level… and of course once the roads begin to be disused, they become discarded and reinforce the tendency. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Precolonial Africa had horses, but my understanding is they were luxury items reserved for military use and as prestige items (same as in India, unlike in Europe) rather than as agricultural labour or standard means of transport (Africa and India used oxen in place of horses). I’m not sure if that’s because of tropical disease pressure or because of the lack of the kind of feed that horses need, but it seems as though they were more difficult to raise in tropical environments than they were in Europe. Yes, the entire Sahel - the dry savannah above the forest and wet grasslands - had horses as it is above the line of the TseTse fly transmitting the killing sleeping sickness to the horses, the bovines (and people). So all horse holders and the oxen holders, they were above that line. You can see the almost perfect mapping of the earliest West african empires and kingdoms to the zones that are above the TseTse fly line. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > But hardly Sub-Saharan as the op was asking about. The Punic writing of the Carthaginians was adopted among the Berbers who created the Tifinagh (now only genuinely used by the Taureq although there is the berberist revival of it for political reasons) which was transmitted into the Sahel probably even before the age of the Islamic entry. so it is a valid example, although the trans saharan Tuareq do not fit neatly into categories. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007/40 "2017-08-22T15:56:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because the wheelbarrow, even the early Euro version, is terribly useful. And what time and effort to create? A wheelbarrow is terribly useful on very flat, open ground. A wheelbarrow is next to useless on steep hills, on rough ground, or in heavily wooded areas. For that, you need very large wheels (think Conestoga wagons). Large wheels are very difficult to produce (particularly in pre-Iron Age societies where durable outer banding would not have been available) and have a tendency to fall apart. They would also have been solid and therefore incredibly heavy, making them suitable only to the sort of carts that would be pulled by horses or oxen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-sub-saharan-africa-really-not-have-wheels-or-written-languages-before-europeans/794007.md?page=3)