# Did Thanksgiving originate as a slur against Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517 "2011-07-10T17:05:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/1 "2011-07-10T17:05:25Z")
I was recently listening to a song, “Ras Kass - The Nature of the Threat”, which gives a somewhat revisionist account of history. At one point the rapper claims that: “On November 25th, 1491 Santiago defeats the last Muslim stronghold, Grenada King Ferdinand gave thanks to God for victory And the Pope of Rome declared this date to forever be A day of Thanksgiving for all European Christians” I’ve never seen reference to that belief before, not even as a conspiracy theory. As far as I know Thanksgiving is a purely American phenomenon and isn’t celebrated anywhere else in the world… Not to mention that the date is off at least a few days a year in the US and always in Canada. That said, the first Spaniards to visit America arrived not long after the fall of Granada. I checked Snopes which said that Thanksgiving wasn’t based on an event that occurred after the first immigrants landed, but may have been based on an earlier harvest festival. Any comment on where the idea that Thanksgiving was based on suppression of Muslims originated? ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/2 "2011-07-10T17:14:28Z")
You need to distinguish between [Thanksgiving](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving), the American/Canadian/Dutch/etc. holiday, and [thanksgiving](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thanksgiving), the act of giving praise and thanks, especially to God. The Pope’s declaration (if there was one; I’m no expert in the area) would have been declaring a day dedicated to the latter, entirely unrelated to the former. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/3 "2011-07-10T17:14:52Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I was recently listening to a song, “Ras Kass - The Nature of the Threat”, which gives a somewhat revisionist account of history. > > (snip) > > Any comment on where the idea that Thanksgiving was based on suppression of Muslims originated? Um, the rapper’s fried braincells perhaps? In the USA, Thanksgiving isn’t always on the 25th - it’s the fourth Thursday in November, which is close, but not that same day. We have lots of holidays that fall on a fixed date regardless of when they fall in the week, and so having it on a random date based on weekly patterns doesn’t make any sense if it is supposed to be a commemoration of an event that we know the date of. Also, Thanksgiving wasn’t established as on the 4th Thursday until 1941. If it was because of a Papist anti-Muslim conspiracy from 1491, wouldn’t it have been on that date (and on the 25th to boot, rather than mucking about with it) from the very beginning? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/4 "2011-07-10T17:21:09Z")
Oh yeah, I was going to make a note of that… I wrote that “the date is off at least a few days a year in the US and always in Canada”, but I meant that Thanksgiving only falls on the 25th every few years in the US and never falls on that date in Canada. Parts of the song you can track to other scholarship, like Bertrand Russell made a note of Cretan influence on Greek culture in History of Western Philosophy, but this was totally novel to me… It doesn’t seem like something he’d just make up on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/5 "2011-07-10T17:23:33Z")
Thanksgiving (with a capital T) the holiday as an annual celebration of the Pilgrims’ survival is a specifically American custom. Proclamation of days of thanksgiving (small t) as one-time celebrations of various events has a much longer history in Europe far predating colonization of North America. The “first Thanksgiving” was actually part of that earlier tradition of one-time celebrations and thanksgiving feasts were not annual holidays. Other thanksgivings were various colonial harvest feasts and Revolutionary War events and so on up through the thanksgiving that Lincoln proclaimed at the end of the Civil War. Thanksgiving as the holiday we know today owes its existence not as much to this tradition, but instead almost entirely to Mrs. Sarah Josepha Hale, editor of Godey’s Lady’s Book, [as Cecil explains](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/434/is-it-true-thanksgiving-was-invented-by-the-editor-of-em-harpers-bazaar-em). So Ras Kaas has the idea that a small-t thanksgiving would be proclaimed on occasion, but he is completely wrong in saying that the holiday we celebrate today is because of some 15th-century Pope’s proclamation. (For all its joys, popular music is rarely a good source of historical documentation.) ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/6 "2011-07-10T17:32:49Z")
It probably bears noting that while many European Christians were Catholic, America (i.e. the country that celebrates Thanksgiving) has historically been mostly protestant, so how much influence what the Pope said would carry in the 14th century is neither here nor there. Not to mention the unlikelihood of the Pope excluding non-European Christians (given the Catholic church split from the Orthodox church on the premise of spreading Christianity). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/7 "2011-07-10T18:07:37Z")
Also, for the record, Granada surrendered to King Ferdinand on January 2, 1942, and the thanksgiving mass was ordered by Ferdinand, and not the pope. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/8 "2011-07-10T18:30:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Granada surrendered to King Ferdinand on January 2, 1942, Yet another reason Spain sat out WW II ;). ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/9 "2011-07-10T18:34:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Also, for the record, Granada surrendered to King Ferdinand on January 2, 1942, and the thanksgiving mass was ordered by Ferdinand, and not the pope. Boy, talk about revisionist. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/10 "2011-07-10T18:38:23Z")
I agree with Bisected. Apparently Ras Kaas never read Westward Ho by Kingsly or Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. This being GQ, I will avoid discussion of the historical accuracy of either book. I will take the stand that they reveal a very strong bias against both the Spanish and Catholics. Maybe my third grade history reader, Heroes,Heroines, and Holidays put too positive of a spin on the first Thanksgiving Day too. However it would be tough to convince me the pope and the Spanish victory over the Muslims had anything to do with it. I grew up in a part of Pennsylvania where the schools and other things shut down the Monday after Thanksgiving to allow the pursuit of corn fed whitetails. The eating was good then. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/11 "2011-07-10T19:05:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yet another reason Spain sat out WW II ;). :smack: Doh! ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/12 "2011-07-10T20:13:45Z")
Political rappers and their fans tend to not understand history and reality very much. For one, they seem to think that everyone is a Freemason; they think that the “Illuminati” is real; they think that everything in the world is a conspiracy against the black man; perhaps most paradoxically, they have a bizarre affinity with Islam even though Islam was (and still is) as much if not more involved in the black slave trade and general oppression of blacks as Whitey ever was. In short, they generally don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to history. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/13 "2011-07-11T00:58:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Political rappers …don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to history. And don’t remember the French they took. ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/14 "2011-07-11T01:12:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Political rappers and their fans tend to not understand history and reality very much. For one, they seem to think that everyone is a Freemason; they think that the “Illuminati” is real; they think that everything in the world is a conspiracy against the black man; perhaps most paradoxically, they have a bizarre affinity with Islam even though Islam was (and still is) as much if not more involved in the black slave trade and general oppression of blacks as Whitey ever was. In short, they generally don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to history. On the other hand Common said “why is Bush acting like he’s trying to get Osama?/ Why don’t we impeach him, and elect Obama?” in mid-2004, which seems pretty prescient… although to be fair the Illuminati and the Masons had probably planned it out already by that point… ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/15 "2011-07-11T01:31:18Z")
Damn, he really said that? Back in 2004, Obama was a nonentity outside of Chicago. Is Common from Chicago? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/16 "2011-07-11T01:53:56Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > Um, the rapper’s fried braincells perhaps? > > In the USA, Thanksgiving isn’t always on the 25th - it’s the fourth Thursday in November, which is close, but not that same day. We have lots of holidays that fall on a fixed date regardless of when they fall in the week, and so having it on a random date based on weekly patterns doesn’t make any sense if it is supposed to be a commemoration of an event that we know the date of. > > Also, Thanksgiving wasn’t established as on the 4th Thursday until 1941. If it was because of a Papist anti-Muslim conspiracy from 1491, wouldn’t it have been on that date (and on the 25th to boot, rather than mucking about with it) from the very beginning? Before 1941, Thanksgiving (capital T) was celebrated on the last Thursday in November. That year November had 5 Thursdays, and FDR moved it back one (with the enthusiastic support of retailers, who had already caught on to the whole “Black Friday” phenomenon) in an effort to boost the economy. So Thanksgiving is a product of a notrious plot between King Ferdinand, the Pope, Lincoln (who first declared it a national holiday), Franklin Roosevelt and Sears. The Kennedy assasination has NOTHING on this! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/17 "2011-07-11T02:57:16Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Damn, he really said that? Back in 2004, Obama was a nonentity outside of Chicago. Is Common from Chicago? July 2004 was when Obama delivered the keynote speech at the Democratic Convention. It’s traditionally a spot reserved for rising political stars. ---
**Author:** ![greenaum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@greenaum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenaum)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/18 "2011-11-17T11:46:11Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > perhaps most paradoxically, they have a bizarre affinity with Islam even though Islam was (and still is) as much if not more involved in the black slave trade and general oppression of blacks as Whitey ever was. In short, they generally don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to history. And ironically enough, many young Muslim men in England (of Pakistani origin mostly), identify with and act like black American rappers. Culture’s a funny thing, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/19 "2011-11-17T12:15:21Z")
I know this is GQ, but feel the need to point out a couple of things: 1. Widespread generalizations about political rappers are unwarranted. Just like other genres, rap artists have diverse viewpoints on just about everything. 2. It’s funny how there are so many discussions on these boards about the hidden or true meaning behind some of the nonsensical lyrics of famous rock acts, but rap lyrics seem to always have to be taken at face value. That is all. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517/20 "2011-11-17T12:42:34Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > It’s funny how there are so many discussions on these boards about the hidden or true meaning behind some of the nonsensical lyrics of famous rock acts, but rap lyrics seem to always have to be taken at face value. Get real. You want to look for hidden meanings in this: > [@](#): > > Well Mack the finger said to Louie the King > I got forty red white and blue shoe strings > And a thousand telephones that don’t ring > Do you know where I can get ride of these things > And Louie the King said let me think for a minute son > And he said yes I think it can be easily done > Just take everything down to Highway 61 Go right ahead and have your fun. But this? > [@](#): > > On November 25th, 1491 > Santiago defeats the last Muslim stronghold, Grenada > King Ferdinand gave thanks to God for victory > And the Pope of Rome declared this date to forever be > A day of Thanksgiving for all European Christians There’s no hidden meaning there. It’s as straight forward as lyrics can be. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-thanksgiving-originate-as-a-slur-against-muslims/588517.md?page=2)