# Did the 9-11 Attacks "Work?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088 "2009-07-15T05:27:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/21 "2009-07-15T17:16:50Z")
I would say that the 9-11 attacks were only half successful at best even in the immediate, logistical sense. They pulled off an impressive stunt with the World Trade Center Towers but I doubt that anyone will ever convince me that they intended to use another plane to strike the biggest office building in the world, the Pentagon, at a low angle in a part of the building under construction in lieu of other, much better targets. It seems obvious that the two remaining planes should have been used to take out both the Capitol building and the White House which would have worked because both are small enough to be destroyed by a fully fueled airliner easily. A brave set of passengers prevented one of them and no one knows why the Pentagon plane screwed up so badly but it was probably incompetence on the part of the terrorist/pilots. The White House and Capitol are difficult to see from the air but the Pentagon is easy yet the terrorists still screwed it up. I guess they should have done some more simulator work in identifying important Washington D.C. landmarks from the air. I would give them a 40% score which in my schools equaled an F-minus and a recommendation for remedial tutoring. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/22 "2009-07-15T17:17:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What do you mean exactly, please elaborate. We’ve already demonstrated a lack of interest in seriously going after them, and that was when our collective anger was strongest. They are also widely distributed, and more of a terrorist brand name than a real organization; they’ll exist as long as someone is interested in calling themselves “Al Qaeda”. And we can’t change the fact that we responded to 9-11 by acting like blithering idiots and doing pretty much what Al Qaeda wanted us to do. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/23 "2009-07-15T17:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=Curtis LeMay] It’s ultimate goal is destroying America, and Israel. [/QUOTE] What gives you this impression? From my own reading, I think it’s ultimate goal is a consolidated, theistic fundamentalist Islamic (Sunni) super state, with it’s core Saudi Arabia. In order to achieve that over all goal, it needs to weaken the amount of influence that the West, and especially American, wield in the region. That’s a real strategic goal. To do this I believe he put in place a series of attacks that would A) Show that he was willing to attack the US, and B) Bring us into conflict at a place and time of his choosing (i.e. Afghanistan) where, in theory, he could hand us a similar defeat to that which the Soviets suffered. What this would do is to lessen the US’s grip on the region, make us pull back into a similar shell as we did after Vietnam, and possibly give him a freer hand in the region to shape things as he wanted. It would also, possibly, give the Euro’s and the rest of The West™ pause, and potentially also weaken their grip there. Also, it would further polish his own image and prestige in the region, especially among the Sunni. I don’t really think that AQ has direct designs against Israel, and I seriously doubt that any of them have, as a realistic goal, the complete destruction of the US. That’s insane. It’s the equivalent of some others in this thread saying that ObL simply wanted to attack because he likes explosions, or attacked us just because he hates us, etc etc. He attacked us for much the same reasons he left his cushy existence in Saudi to fight Soviets in Afghanistan…because he has goals and a vision. That it’s an evil vision is beside the point…this guy isn’t some goat herd who has been deluded into strapping explosives on his chest in the hope of 72 virgins. He’s an intelligent and educated man. Quite evil, but not an idiot. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/24 "2009-07-15T17:20:21Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s ultimate goal is destroying America, and Israel. I guess it’s immediate goal was for them to defeat the US in a war-both will fail. They are at far more of a disadvantage then the Imperial Japanese. I doubt if you asked bin Ladin what his organizations ultimate goal, he’d say “to destroy Israel and America”. Here is wikipedia’s summary of Qutbism, which is supposedly the ideology he subscribes to: > [@](#): > > The main tenet of Qutbist ideology is that the Muslim community (or the Muslim community outside of a vanguard fighting to reestablish it) “has been extinct for a few centuries” [4] having reverted to Godless ignorance (Jahiliyya), and must be re-conquered for Islam. > > Qutb outlined his ideas in his book Ma’alim fi-l-Tariq (aka Milestones). Other important principles of Qutbism include[citation needed] > > ``` > * adherence to Sharia as sacred law accessible to humans, without which Islam cannot exist > * adherence to Sharia as a complete way of life that will bring not only justice, but complete freedom from servitude, peace, personal serenity, scientific discovery and other benefits; > * avoidance of Western and non-Islamic "evil and corruption," including socialism and nationalism; > * vigilance against Western and Jewish conspiracies against Islam > * a two-pronged attack of 1) preaching to convert and 2) jihad to forcibly eliminate the "structures" of Jahiliyya. > * the importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth. > > ``` His main beef isn’t with non-muslims in the US and Israel, but with Muslims who have abandoned what he sees as Islam. As many of these Muslims are supported by the US and at least some have made peace with Israel, he wants both countries out of the greater Middle East. But that’s part of a means to an end rather then an ultimate goal. But in any case, the question was did 9/11 work., not did Al-Queda succed in it’s ultimate goal (to which the answer is pretty obviously no, or at least not yet). I’d say it did work, the point was to draw US troops to Afghanistan, and it succeded. Of course, part II of the plan, tying the US down in a bloody quagmire there, didn’t go so well, though I would suspect bin Ladin tells himself that since US troops are still fighting and dying there, that time remains to turn the tables. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/25 "2009-07-15T17:23:38Z")
The one place where Bin Laden failed was that he didn’t recognize that his attacking us on our own soil gave us that “Moral Law” that Sun Tzu talked about to go into Afghanistan and stick there. Even though the ardor has died down, I don’t see us pulling out of Afghanistan any time soon. Bin Laden thought that Afghanistan would be the same for us as it was for the Soviets, or the same for us as was Vietnam. That’s a misreading of history. The Vietnamese never bombed Pearl Harbor. The Afghans never attacked Moscow. There was no long-term moral rightness driving the invaders. In Afghanistan, we will continue fighting because we can always call back to that initial point of, “they attacked us first.” The one way OBL very nearly succeeded, though, was that Bush decided “they” also included Iraq, and got us bogged down there, in a fight where a majority of people feel we DON’T have the Moral Law on our side. Our heart’s not in that fight. So OBL may have succeeded, but only through Bush’s stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/26 "2009-07-15T17:36:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We’ve already demonstrated a lack of interest in seriously going after them, and that was when our collective anger was strongest. They are also widely distributed, and more of a terrorist brand name than a real organization; they’ll exist as long as someone is interested in calling themselves “Al Qaeda”. And we can’t change the fact that we responded to 9-11 by acting like blithering idiots and doing pretty much what Al Qaeda wanted us to do. What should we have done then? We needed to go to Afghanistan and cut off the serpent’s head so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/27 "2009-07-15T17:44:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What should we have done then? We needed to go to Afghanistan and cut off the serpent’s head so to speak. The serpents head is in Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan is just the training ground. Killing privates will not end the war. The finances are mostly Saudi and the brains behind them are too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/28 "2009-07-15T17:59:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What should we have done then? We needed to go to Afghanistan and cut off the serpent’s head so to speak. And we didn’t. We let the “head” escape because we weren’t actually interested; going to Afghanistan was just something that had to be gotten out of the away so we could conquer Iraq. And as **gonzomax** points out, Saudi Arabia is more central to our enemies than Afghanistan ever was. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/29 "2009-07-15T18:28:42Z")
Has it ever been proven that the money that supposedly came from Saudi Arabia to fund Al-Qaeda (I thought UBL was independently wealthy?) came from anyone in the Saudi government? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/30 "2009-07-15T18:43:08Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Has it ever been proven that the money that supposedly came from Saudi Arabia to fund Al-Qaeda (I thought UBL was independently wealthy?) came from anyone in the Saudi government? Not that I know of. But then the Taliban wasn’t funding Al Qaeda either as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/31 "2009-07-15T18:49:51Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Has it ever been proven that the money that supposedly came from Saudi Arabia to fund Al-Qaeda (I thought UBL was independently wealthy?) came from anyone in the Saudi government? There was [this lawsuit](http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-03-2009/0005037465&EDATE) filed against some members. These are obviously just allegations. "Specifically, the families’ lawsuit alleges that: ``` ** Prince Turki al Faisal al Saud, past head of Saudi intelligence, coordinated Saudi financial and logistical support for al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. In July 1998, Prince Turki brokered an agreement between these parties in which the Saudis provided al Qaeda and the Taliban with generous financial assistance in exchange for a pledge by bin Laden and the Taliban that al Qaeda would not attack the Saudi royal family.(1) * Prince Mohamed al Faisal al Saud headed the Islamic bank Dar al Maal al Islami, which provided global financial services and financing to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.(2) * Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz al Saud, whose responsibilities included overseeing Islamic charitable funding in Saudi Arabia, funded al Qaeda through personal contributions to Islamic charities known to support bin Laden and his terrorist organization.(3) * Prince Naif bin Abdulaziz al Saud, who has long supported Palestinian suicide bombers, provided pay-off money to al Qaeda. His oversight of al Qaeda front charity al Haramain allowed it to support bin Laden and al Qaeda unabated.(4) * Prince Salman bin Abdul Aziz al Saud has a long history of funding Islamic extremists through his work as chairman of the General Donation Committee for Afghanistan. In this capacity, Prince Salman made substantial personal contributions to al Qaeda front charities with the full knowledge the charities were misappropriating funds and involved in terrorist activities.(5)*" ``` Not directly related to your question, Here’s a great [overview of terrorism funding](http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32499.pdf) (PDF) coming from Saudi Arabia. Here’s a [particular religious organization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Haramain_Foundation) that funded terrorism headquartered in SA, and some of the financiers are currently being detained. There are many organizations like this in SA. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/32 "2009-07-15T18:52:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Has it ever been proven that the money that supposedly came from Saudi Arabia to fund Al-Qaeda (I thought UBL was independently wealthy?) came from anyone in the Saudi government? Absolutely. But the Royals number about 5000. [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/08/poll.binladen/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/08/poll.binladen/index.html) Nice friends to have. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/33 "2009-07-15T19:01:46Z")
Interesting guys, thanks. So, no overt support from the Saudi government, just mavericks within the structure. Or people “doing what they were told”, perhaps. \*Gonzomax’s \*link is interesting. So if **Cool Hand’s** link is true, people within the Saudi establishment brokered deals with Al-Qaeda and UBL to help them logistically and financially in exchange for not attacking the royal family, yet they still strike in Riyadh and other places, and even then UBL garners positive reveiws for his rhetoric. Strange country. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/34 "2009-07-15T19:09:17Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > first off we have to admit we do not know what the guy’s goals were. Not in a tactical sense, perhaps, but we do know what his long-term goals are, based on his published statements. He wants a general war between the Islamic world and the Western world, either preceded by or culminating in the political unification of all Islam under a caliph, with the Islamic Caliphate becoming the world’s new superpower. Which is a goal no nearer to fruition now than it was in 2000. Leaving aside the vested interest of the existing governments of Islamic countries in maintaining their countries’ independence, how could there ever be a caliph both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims would recognize? That would be like having a Pope of all Catholics and Protestants. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/35 "2009-07-15T19:16:53Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Not that I know of. But then the Taliban wasn’t funding Al Qaeda either as far as I know. [/QUOTE] Even if true (and I’d say there is at least some evidence that the Taliban were offering some level of support to AQ), the critical difference was that the Taliban allowed AQ to base their operations out of Afghanistan…while Saudi didn’t. I’m unsure what this sort of key difference is so often overlooked when this subject comes up, but this seems to be the trend. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/36 "2009-07-15T19:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Absolutely. But the Royals number about 5000. [/QUOTE] Absolutely? Absolutely…what? Your cite doens’t prove a god damned thing except that a large percentage of Saudi’s: > [@](#): > > have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden’s sermons and rhetoric, but fewer than 5 percent thought it was a good idea for bin Laden to rule the Arabian Peninsula. > [@](#): > > “I was surprised [at the results], especially after the bombings,” Obaid told CNN. The question put to Saudi citizens was “What is your opinion of Osama bin Laden’s sermons and rhetoric?” > > “They like what he said about what’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or about America and the Zionist conspiracy. But what he does, that’s where you see the huge drop,” said Obaid, referring to the bombings that had already begun taking place inside Saudi Arabia at the time the poll was conducted. Then there is this (which you obviously missed): > [@](#): > > Forty-one percent said they favored strong and close relations with America, while only 39 percent said they had a favorable opinion of the Saudi armed forces, both results that Obaid also termed “surprising.” IOW, about half of the Saudi’s agreed with SOME of Bin Laden’s sermons and views concerning the war in Afghanistan and Iraq (a similar poll in Europe would probably have gotten similar views, especially if the fact it was ObL was masked). At the same time, nearly half of the Saudi’s ALSO favor closer relations with the US. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/37 "2009-07-15T19:29:44Z")
Yes indeed. if you don’t get 51 percent or more saying they don.t like America, there is no way anybody would have funneled money to Osama. I did not know they had to have an election to decide if anyone, anyone at all, would send money. Have someone read this to you. [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/middleeast/24saudi.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/middleeast/24saudi.html) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/38 "2009-07-15T19:37:51Z")
[http://www67.homepage.villanova.edu/andrew.gasperi/article%204.htm](http://www67.homepage.villanova.edu/andrew.gasperi/article%204.htm) Wall Street Journal article saying 20 of the richest Saudi families are supporting Osama. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/39 "2009-07-15T19:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Yes indeed. if you don’t get 51 percent or more saying they don.t like America, there is no way anybody would have funneled money to Osama. I did not know they had to have an election to decide if anyone, anyone at all, would send money. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Your cite didn’t show or even mention whether or not Saudi’s were funneling funds to AQ. It’s fairly obvious that you DIDN’T READ THE FUCKING THING AND JUST DID ANOTHER OF YOUR STUPID DRIVE BY LINKS! > [@](#): > > Have someone read this to you. The irony…it burns. So, now you have finally found a cite that DOES show what you wanted too. And, to further the irony, I never disputed that some (private) Saudi’s do send funds to AQ. It’s a pretty well known fact, actually. Since you wouldn’t know a clue if it sat in your lap and called you mama, let me spell it out for you…your first cite? It didn’t say what you thought it said, and it proved nothing you were trying to prove ‘absolutely’. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/40 "2009-07-15T19:52:00Z")
I think it’s an important distinction to make (that is, is Al-Qaeda/UBL funded by members of the Saudi government versus private individuals) given the USA’s relationship with Saudi Arabia and the royals. And their oil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=3)