# Did the 9-11 Attacks "Work?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088 "2009-07-15T05:27:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/61 "2009-07-16T15:55:06Z")
I believe that Bin Laden probably feels he was 70% successful in his attacks. If he were able to reflect on the past 8 years and determine if he would do it all over again, he would. Lets be honest, many things did not occur the way he, nor anyone else could have really predicted. Its bad (for Bin Laden) that Afghanistan is no longer under the Taliban, Iraq is no longer under Saddam, and the eyes of the world’s military and police are now tuned in to Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists. However, its good for him that a culture war is firmly in place, Americans are less prosperous because of the war spending, freedom in the West is curtailed due to security and bigoted fears, and its easier to recruit followers because extremism on both sides have risen and seemed to have drowned out the moderates. Does the good outweigh the bad? To me, it seems so because so much of the bad can be mitigated and so much of the good is really difficult to pacify. Pakistan is now the new Afghanistan, and Iraq served its purpose as a foundation for attacking Americans, training jihadists, and draining the coffers and will of the American people. And while the world now knows Al-Qaeda’s name, so too does the countless thousands of potential recruits. To fight against the good (for Bin Laden), would take staggering amounts of patience, time, and money. How do you simply stop the culture clash that Bin Laden unleashed? Especially when countries lock up Muslims, torture them, ban their headwear, and generally make them miserable, whether justified or not, in their country of residence. The powers that governments grabbed in their haste to provide security will not be easily relinquished, if at all, and so that serves as another point for the pro-Bin Laden side Sure there was a lot he hasn’t accomplished, but I doubt anything thinks that 9/11 itself was going to topple the Saudi kings or usher in an apocolypse on Israel. Those are tangential. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/62 "2009-07-16T17:20:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Al-Queda is now the most feared and respected terrorist organization in the world. Even if they’re all killed, history will remember them as the men who managed to hurt the most powerful nation in the world. > > So yes, its goals were achieved. Feared and respected by whom? The bats which share the Afghan caves they’re hiding in? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/63 "2009-07-16T21:15:46Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Why are we proving _anything_ to bin Laden? Seems to me that a truly _powerful_ nation would have long since seen him dead. > Our failure to kill him leaves us looking _impotent_. I expect that image of America suits OBL and friends just fine. Finding someone that doesn’t want to be found in an area with the terrain of Afghanistan/Pakistan, with plenty of money, while being abbetted by the local populace isn’t very easy. OBL is definitely keeping his head down. When’s the last time he made a video recording? ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/64 "2009-07-16T21:39:33Z")
Whether the conspiracy theorists are right or wrong (and I think it’s more likely Elvis did it) the sad thing is that it _has_ worked. It’s obviously something psychologically shocking to the US that has never known a foreign attack. Much worse is that it’s put the fear of God into other nations that _have_ known real war and terrorism. In the 70s and 80s. anarchist gangs and nationalist organisation - IRA, PLO, ETA etc - were planting bombs and hijacking aircraft every month or so. And nobody really cared. Maybe it was because a lot of people were still alive who’d lived through WW2 or Korea or terrorist campaigns in Palestine (yes folks, poor little Israel was founded by terrorists), Cyprus, Malaya, Kenya and of course the chaos following Indian independence, the Algerian War of Independence and God knows what else. The truth is that the WTC attack was massive but others have been little different from what went on then except _much much rarer_. Yet they’ve got everybody panicked the moment they see a guy with a beard. They’ve created a whole notion about Islam drawn from Arabia and their fundamentalists and a feeling that the whole lot are one great Jihad waiting to happen. Most Muslims are no worse than Mormons and many of them far more tolerant. We don’t even know whether a structured organisation called Al-Qaida exists or ever did. One meaning is \*The Database[/i]and it is said to have originally been a CIA list of terrorists with no known affiliation. They may not have ever been a single organised group but it suits terrorists to give the impression that they are. Attacks in Iraq are reported as if they were on our doorstep. As many of them are aimed at other Iraqis as at the coalition forces. Afghanistan is a mess with local warlords and drug lords recruiting expendable cannon-fodder in their private feuds with each other and the government behind the disguise of Jihad. They would be happy enough to see the extreme Taliban back because the harsher the regime the more corruption on the big scale but suppression of small rivals - like _The Handmaid’s Tale_. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/65 "2009-07-16T21:51:07Z")
> [@Jerseyman](#): > > Whether the conspiracy theorists are right or wrong (and I think it’s more likely Elvis did it) the sad thing is that it _has_ worked. It’s obviously something psychologically shocking to the US that has never known a foreign attack. Much worse is that it’s put the fear of God into other nations that _have_ known real war and terrorism. In the 70s and 80s. anarchist gangs and nationalist organisation - IRA, PLO, ETA etc - were planting bombs and hijacking aircraft every month or so. And nobody really cared. Maybe it was because a lot of people were still alive who’d lived through WW2 or Korea or terrorist campaigns in Palestine (yes folks, poor little Israel was founded by terrorists), Cyprus, Malaya, Kenya and of course the chaos following Indian independence, the Algerian War of Independence and God knows what else. > > The truth is that the WTC attack was massive but others have been little different from what went on then except _much much rarer_. Yet they’ve got everybody panicked the moment they see a guy with a beard. They’ve created a whole notion about Islam drawn from Arabia and their fundamentalists and a feeling that the whole lot are one great Jihad waiting to happen. Most Muslims are no worse than Mormons and many of them far more tolerant. > > We don’t even know whether a structured organisation called Al-Qaida exists or ever did. One meaning is \*The Database[/i]and it is said to have originally been a CIA list of terrorists with no known affiliation. They may not have ever been a single organised group but it suits terrorists to give the impression that they are. > > Attacks in Iraq are reported as if they were on our doorstep. As many of them are aimed at other Iraqis as at the coalition forces. Afghanistan is a mess with local warlords and drug lords recruiting expendable cannon-fodder in their private feuds with each other and the government behind the disguise of Jihad. They would be happy enough to see the extreme Taliban back because the harsher the regime the more corruption on the big scale but suppression of small rivals - like _The Handmaid’s Tale_. Well the US isn’t going to let that happen, is it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/66 "2009-07-16T22:08:04Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Finding someone that doesn’t want to be found in an area with the terrain of Afghanistan/Pakistan, with plenty of money, while being abbetted by the local populace isn’t very easy. Yes, it’s hard work being president. That’s no excuse for failure. > [@](#): > > OBL is definitely keeping his head down. When’s the last time he made a video recording? OBL last released a message on July 12, 2009: [OBL message in Urdu transcription released](http://pakobserver.net/200907/14/news/topstories10.asp) > [@](#): > > OBL message in Urdu transcription released > > Akhtar Jamal > > Islamabad—An audio message said to be of Osama bin Laden was released with Urdu translation of his Arabic speech by an Islamic Jehadi site and was also available on U-tube. > > The message with Urdu sub-title was released on July 12, 2009 and was posted on U-tube on July 11 in which Osama bin Laden has targeted PakistanPresident Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and Chief of Army Staff. > > Osama bin Laden who was once referred to by CIA as Agent “Tim Osman” during Afghan Jehad against Russian occupation has also warned that “if Pakistan gets weak India would divide it into parts and Pakistani nuclear assets may be neutralized then.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/67 "2009-07-16T22:19:18Z")
[http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/usa/Al\_Queda.htm](http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/usa/Al_Queda.htm) This article says El Queda is in more than 60 countries. How will fighting in Afghanistan solve anything. When we went in because of 911 ,we accomplished all we could. Now we are just wasting lives and treasure. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/68 "2009-07-16T22:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] El Queda [/QUOTE] It’s Al…not El. Your own cite says this. I’m unsure why you can’t get this simple thing, but Al and El have completely different meanings in Arabic. > [@](#): > > How will fighting in Afghanistan solve anything. Because Al Qaeda had much of it’s C&C and training facilities in Afghanistan. Seems pretty straight forward to me how this would be helpful, even if it doesn’t ‘solve’ the problem. > [@](#): > > When we went in because of 911 ,we accomplished all we could. We went there because that’s where AQ had it’s bases and it’s largest visible presence. We are still there because so are they. > [@](#): > > Now we are just wasting lives and treasure. Obama would seem to disagree with you, since he is actually ramping things up there instead of winding things down. And, not that it’s a big mystery, but he’s right and you aren’t. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/69 "2009-07-16T23:03:53Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > except we turned around and essentially bombed much of afghanistan back into the stone age … real good move. “Back” to the Stone Age? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/70 "2009-07-17T01:55:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its bad (for Bin Laden) that Afghanistan is no longer under the Taliban, Iraq is no longer under Saddam, Al Qaeda and Saddam were\*\*\* enemies\*\*\*; they hated each other. Our toppling of Saddam was a victory for Al Qaeda. And we largely destroyed Iraqi secularism, on top of that. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/71 "2009-07-17T02:28:28Z")
Obviously it is a huge national wtf moment, so of course they worked. Apparently the next logical question is who to kill. Which Bush fucked up, for debatable reasons. How does America ‘get out’ of 9-11? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/72 "2009-07-17T08:39:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No it was the most idiotic thing Al-Qaeda could have done. Had they been smart they would have continued bombing minor targets like USS Cole, or the Embassy Bombings. Now we shall crush Al-Qaeda, utterly destroy them without mercy, grind them into atoms, reduce them to ashes, and wipe off the blot from the face of this planet. Meanwhile … back on planet Earth. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/73 "2009-07-17T08:42:11Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Interesting guys, thanks. > > So, no overt support from the Saudi government, just mavericks within the structure. Or people “doing what they were told”, perhaps. > > \*Gonzomax’s \*link is interesting. So if **Cool Hand’s** link is true, people within the Saudi establishment brokered deals with Al-Qaeda and UBL to help them logistically and financially in exchange for not attacking the royal family, yet they still strike in Riyadh and other places, and even then UBL garners positive reveiws for his rhetoric. > > Strange country. The Saudi’s are the ones who fund the extreme nut-job terrorist Wahhabist version of Islam world-wide. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/74 "2009-07-17T14:10:17Z")
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] How does America ‘get out’ of 9-11? [/QUOTE] It’s not really so much about 9/11 anymore. Events have happened and the world has moved on. We are IN Afghanistan now, and unless we want to see the whole country go tits up and back to the level it was prior to our invasion we are pretty much disposed to stay there until (hopefully) the Taliban and AQ are put down hard enough to become only a background problem in the region…and, in theory, until the Afghan government is strong enough to deal with that background problem essentially on it’s own. I’m guessing this will be a LONG time to get to this point. However, by and large our allies in the region don’t seem quite yet ready to pull up stakes. While the war in Afghanistan is no more popular in the various NATO countries supplying troops and supplies to Afghanistan than it is in the US, there hasn’t been a massive hue and cry (yet) for the majority of those countries to cut and run. That being the case, it would be more cowardly than usual for US to do so at this stage. Obviously, Obama agrees…in fact, he is doing the opposite of pulling up stakes and getting us out of dodge. He has increased our troop levels and our commitment to the region. You might want to think about WHY he’s done that…and ponder the fact that NATO also doesn’t seem ready to call it a day yet either. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/75 "2009-07-17T16:16:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It’s Al…not El. Your own cite says this. I’m unsure why you can’t get this simple thing, but Al and El have completely different meanings in Arabic. He was talking about the Spanish version of Al Qaeda they’re a little more laid back. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/76 "2009-07-17T17:57:53Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > the Spanish version of Al Qaeda they’re a little more laid back. Lances and windmills rather than airplanes and towers, that sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/77 "2009-07-17T18:07:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Al Qaeda and Saddam were\*\*\* enemies\*\*\*; they hated each other. Our toppling of Saddam was a victory for Al Qaeda. And we largely destroyed Iraqi secularism, on top of that. I suppose you can look at it that way, and if so, you’d be correct. Given hindsight though, having US troops and a puppet government in Iraq isnt exactly a good outcome of toppling Saddam. Whatever hatred Saddam may have had with Bin Laden, they were at least ideologically closer than the US and Bin Laden. Despite not being a Muslim fundamentalist, Saddam did pay them lots of lip service over the years ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/78 "2009-07-17T18:19:40Z")
Saddam ran a secular regime in Iraq, so I don’t see how you can say that was ideologically aligned with Al Qaeda. Secular regimes in Dar al Islam seem to be an even greater affront to global Jihadists than Liberal western nations. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/79 "2009-07-17T18:38:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It’s not really so much about 9/11 anymore. Events have happened and the world has moved on. We are IN Afghanistan now, and unless we want to see the whole country go tits up and back to the level it was prior to our invasion we are pretty much disposed to stay there until (hopefully) the Taliban and AQ are put down hard enough to become only a background problem in the region…and, in theory, until the Afghan government is strong enough to deal with that background problem essentially on it’s own. I’m guessing this will be a LONG time to get to this point. > > However, by and large our allies in the region don’t seem quite yet ready to pull up stakes. While the war in Afghanistan is no more popular in the various NATO countries supplying troops and supplies to Afghanistan than it is in the US, there hasn’t been a massive hue and cry (yet) for the majority of those countries to cut and run. That being the case, it would be more cowardly than usual for US to do so at this stage. Obviously, Obama agrees…in fact, he is doing the opposite of pulling up stakes and getting us out of dodge. He has increased our troop levels and our commitment to the region. You might want to think about WHY he’s done that…and ponder the fact that NATO also doesn’t seem ready to call it a day yet either. > > -XT ISTM that Afghanistan has been tits up for decades. The only question now is between over-easy and sunny side up. OBL (and his backers) must be pretty callous toward Afghanistan if he counts this part of it as a success, even if we left tomorrow. As for the ‘cut and run’ business… you may have me confused with someone else. I question whether we should have got involved in the first place, but what to do about it now is a separate issue. I’m finding it almost impossible to gather much information about the current state of affairs. I’m not prepared to dictate policy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/80 "2009-07-17T18:42:57Z")
As far as I understand it getting America bogged down in Afghanistan was a primary goal of the 9/11 attacks. Bin Laden surmised that Afghanistan was a place historically where Empires have gone to die, and he hope that it would be true for America. To understand Al Qaeda one needs to understand the difference between Jihadism and Islamism. A good book on the subject is the easy to read, “How to Win a Cosmic War.”, by Reza Aslan. Jihadism is based off of the idea of a global Jihad that one fights until Islam is ascendant and ultimately victorious, where all of Dar al Islam falls under the aegis of an Islamic Caliphate (Empire). Islamism is particular to a region, it generally can be thought of as Muslim nationalism. Some groups are Jihadist like Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood. Others are Islamist, like Hamas, Lashkar-e-Toiba, and Hezbollah. An Islamist sect seeks to bring about a Muslim government in a particular nation, a Jihadist one attempts to string all Islamist struggles into a larger universal narrative of global Jihad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=5)