# Did the 9-11 Attacks "Work?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088 "2009-07-15T05:27:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/141 "2010-09-14T18:59:35Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > _ **“Just geography”? That buildings closer to WTC 1 and 2 with more severe damage didn’t fall, but building 7 did, and straight down?** _ I’m still waiting to hear how this is a coincidence. There were major fires in 7WTC and the damage to the building was more severe than some people realize. (Particularly people pushing alternate theories for the attacks.) > [@](#): > > _ **That’s not the issue.** _ I agree it’s a nonissue. But then again, I didn’t bring it up. 😛 > [@](#): > > _ **I think it’s pretty convenient that they were practicing that very scenario, and were thus unavailable when it actually happened** _ For who? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/142 "2010-09-14T19:09:59Z")
And anyway, don’t coincidences argue against your theory? If I were planning an attack like this I wouldn’t _want_ coincidences that could incriminate me (however fanciful they are). I wouldn’t have the military running training exercises to practice defending against the attack I was executing - that’d be STUPID. I’d have them running training exercises against something else. I wouldn’t aim for the best-defended side of a target. That would be even stupider. Nor would I set things up so that a well-connected security agency was guarding my target until one day before my attack. What kind of sense would any of this make? ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/143 "2010-09-14T19:22:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And anyway, don’t coincidences argue against your theory? If I were planning an attack like this I wouldn’t _want_ coincidences that could incriminate me (however fanciful they are). I wouldn’t have the military running training exercises to practice defending against the attack I was executing - that’d be STUPID. I’d have them running training exercises against something else. I wouldn’t aim for the best-defended side of a target. That would be even stupider. Nor would I set things up so that a well-connected security agency was guarding my target until one day before my attack. What kind of sense would any of this make? It would make a great deal of sense if you didn’t REALLY want to destroy the Pentagon, but didn’t want the pesky military getting in the way. As for the WTVC, it would make a great deal of sense to have a security company you could trust to look the other way while setting up the buildings with explosives. A real security company would have been very inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/144 "2010-09-14T19:25:37Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > It would make a great deal of sense if you didn’t REALLY want to destroy the Pentagon, but didn’t want the pesky military getting in the way. What? Then why attack it at all if you don’t want to damage it? You just said it was an almost unoccupied part of the building, so it didn’t get the military out of the way. > [@](#): > > As for the WTVC, it would make a great deal of sense to have a security company you could trust to look the other way while setting up the buildings with explosives. Right. Don’t forget they paid off the tens of thousands of people who worked there so they would look the other way while their own office was lined with magic explosives that would go off perfectly at the instant a plane hit the building. Oh, and that the explosives wouldn’t look like an explosion at all, but would bear an uncanny resemblance to the damage from a jet hitting the building. I notice you didn’t bother to address the basic point: if you’re plotting an attack, incriminating coincidences are the last thing you want. You’d want to cover those up. Coincidences are what you’d expect from reality, not from a carefully laid plot by evil overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/145 "2010-09-14T19:30:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Marvin Bush being with the security comany for the WTC (his contract ending Sept 10 2001) was pretty interesting > > What do you think the security company was going to do in the event the building was hit by planes? Marvin’s company didn’t even handle physical security. They’re strictly video security! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/146 "2010-09-14T19:34:57Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > _ **I think it’s pretty convenient that they were practicing that very scenario, and were thus unavailable when it actually happened** _ Al Qaeda had at least one mole within the US Army. You think maybe they knew there would be wargames going on that day and factored that into their plans? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/147 "2010-09-14T19:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=Mozart1220] Given that Oswald couldn’t possibly have fired all the shots AT kennedy, and certainly not the “kill shot”, I take offense at being called a "nutter’. [/QUOTE] Given that this is a complete, bald faced…um…inaccuracy, let’s say…well, given that, if the shoe (or show) fits… > [@](#): > > Even congress agreed in 1978 that there was ample evidence for a conspiracy. Are you suggesting conspiracies NEVER happen? No, they didn’t. As to whether or not conspiracies happen, of course they do. 9/11 was obviously a conspiracy…a conspiracy by AQ to launch a large scale raid to hurt the US. Worked too. They simply don’t happen in the comic book way that CTers assert they do. The real world doesn’t work that way. > [@](#): > > As for 9-11, there are too many coincidences and impossible scenarios for any thinking person to think the government got the explaination right. Only for someone who has blinded themselves to reason and thinking. If one looks at the events, while a lot of things had to go right for it to work, it was really a simple plan, and only needed to get a couple of lucky breaks to have the partial success they achieved. Nothing that happened (that REALLY happened) was ‘impossible’. Not even improbable. Coincidences? Yeah, those happen, and luck also plays a part…something that CTers just can’t seem to grasp. There is simply no point in arguing this all with you, however. It is exactly like arguing with a fundamentalist about religion…no amount of reason or facts is going to sway you, no matter how ridiculous you are made to look as you trot out the same tired, already debunked arguments. Hell, I probably know them better than you do, since I’ve seen them all before…over, and over, and over again. > [@](#): > > Funny how you trust the government when they tell you what you want to hear. Funny how you trot out this same old strawman that all the rest of your predecessors have trotted out, ehe? Ok…it’s not really funny. It’s sad. > [@](#): > > Even funnier are all the excuses people make for Bush’s “seven minutes of quiet contemplation” after hearing the country was under attack. Another strawman…so tiresome. I have noticed that the nuttiest of the CTers on 9/11 are rabidly anti-Bush, and that they assume that anyone who ‘believes the official story’ _snort_ MUST be a Bush fan. Happily, not everyone who disliked Bush were brain damaged, and still have the ability to smell the bullshit when it’s waffled at them… > [@](#): > > I wonder if Clinton would have gotten the same courtesy? I wonder if Lincoln would have?? Makes you think, ehe? > [@](#): > > The “Loose Change” people conceeded some points, like reasonable people will, but certainly didn’t conceed them all. They are kids pushing bullshit to the uninformed and the ignorant. They ‘conceeded’ (sic) points because they were flat out wrong and were hit in the face so many times over them that they HAD to. Most of the rest of their BS is the same kind of ‘just asking questions’ horseshit that is generally used by such people to try and score points with those who don’t have a clue what reality is. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/148 "2010-09-14T20:53:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Mozart1220] > Given that Oswald couldn’t possibly have fired all the shots AT kennedy, and certainly not the “kill shot”, I take offense at being called a "nutter’. Given that this is a complete, bald faced…um…inaccuracy, let’s say…well, given that, if the shoe (or show) fits… \*\*\*Given that Oswald was behind and to Kennedy’s right, I don’t see how the exit wound could be from the same direction. Also, since no one since has been able to come close to duplicating the shots, not to mention the path of the “magic bullet” it’s just the bald faced facts. \*\*\* No, they didn’t. As to whether or not conspiracies happen, of course they do. 9/11 was obviously a conspiracy…a conspiracy by AQ to launch a large scale raid to hurt the US. Worked too. They simply don’t happen in the comic book way that CTers assert they do. The real world doesn’t work that way. \*\*\*The real world doesn’t have not one but three buildings fall straight down, have holes made in concrete buildings smaller than the alleged “missile” and cell phones trasmitting from planes at 37,000 ft (at least in 2001) either, but that doesn’t stop you from believeing what you were told to believe. \*\*\* Only for someone who has blinded themselves to reason and thinking. If one looks at the events, while a lot of things had to go right for it to work, it was really a simple plan, and only needed to get a couple of lucky breaks to have the partial success they achieved. Nothing that happened (that REALLY happened) was ‘impossible’. Not even improbable. Coincidences? Yeah, those happen, and luck also plays a part…something that CTers just can’t seem to grasp. _ **Three skyscrapers falling straight down into their own footprint? Why do experts take weeks to set up something like that? All they apparantly have to do is lob a couple barrels of kerosene into the top floors!** _ There is simply no point in arguing this all with you, however. It is exactly like arguing with a fundamentalist about religion…no amount of reason or facts is going to sway you, no matter how ridiculous you are made to look as you trot out the same tired, already debunked arguments. \*\*\*WHO “debunked” them? The government who told the lies in the first place? popular Mechanics? \*\*\* Hell, I probably know them better than you do, since I’ve seen them all before…over, and over, and over again. \*\*\*And yet you still maintain the impossible occurred because the people you voted for and support told you so. \*\*\* Funny how you trot out this same old strawman that all the rest of your predecessors have trotted out, ehe? Ok…it’s not really funny. It’s sad. \*\*\*“Strawman” nice little catchphrase. meaningless, but nice. \*\*\* Another strawman…so tiresome. I have noticed that the nuttiest of the CTers on 9/11 are rabidly anti-Bush, and that they assume that anyone who ‘believes the official story’ _snort_ MUST be a Bush fan. _ **Great excuse there, like Bush never lied t us about anyhting, especially something he used as an excuse to go to war with a place that had nothing to do with 9-11** _ Happily, not everyone who disliked Bush were brain damaged, and still have the ability to smell the bullshit when it’s waffled at them… \*\*\*Ah, so anyone who questions the Bush administration is “brain damaged”. Very “Fox News” of you. \*\*\* I wonder if Lincoln would have?? Makes you think, ehe? > [@](#): > > The “Loose Change” people conceeded some points, like reasonable people will, but certainly didn’t conceed them all. They are kids pushing bullshit to the uninformed and the ignorant. \*\*\*LIke Bush, Cheney, and Rummy did eh? \*\*\* They ‘conceeded’ (sic) points because they were flat out wrong and were hit in the face so many times over them that they HAD to. Most of the rest of their BS is the same kind of ‘just asking questions’ horseshit that is generally used by such people to try and score points with those who don’t have a clue what reality is. \*\*\*Yeah, we can’t have people runnig around questioning the “official story”. They MUST be “discredited”(not proven wrong) like those who questioned the Warren Commission. \*\*\* -XT [/QUOTE] Nothing like being told you are nuts by someone who voted for Bush, and probably Palin. Oh the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/149 "2010-09-14T21:06:55Z")
You need to read what people are actually typing instead of what you think they’re saying. You could not find a message board with a worse attitude towards Bush outside of actual political activist sites (I, personally, would like to see him brought in front of the International Criminal Court). Yet, no one takes 9/11 conspiracy theories seriously here. Twirl those two thoughts around in your brain and see what rattles forth. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/150 "2010-09-14T21:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mozart1220] Nothing like being told you are nuts by someone who voted for Bush, and probably Palin. Oh the irony. [/QUOTE] Nothing like being told (incorrectly) who you voted for by a nut…gives one a warm and fuzzy sensation inside when someone builds men of straw. The warmth, of course, comes from lighting them on fire and seeing the smoke… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/151 "2010-09-15T00:00:43Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Why did the “plane” that hit the Pentagon fly all the way around and conveniently hit the one section closed down for renovation? Renovation to make it stronger against a MISSILE ATTACK? > > What do you mean, “all the way around”? It hit the western side of the building. It approached from the west. AFTER making nearly a complete circle around the building. Pretty good for someone who allegedly barely passed the class to fly a plane. > **[9-11 Research: Where The Pentagon Was Hit](https://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/location.html)** > > Pentagon assault location,Office of Naval Ingelligence And to answer the origional question, the 9-11 attacks worked wonders, if turning America into the land of xenaphobic paranoids was their goal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/152 "2010-09-15T00:08:22Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Raygun99](#): > > > > . > > AFTER making nearly a complete circle around the building. You have a funny definition of ‘Around the building’ Did you even look at this link previously provided? > **[911myths](https://web.archive.org/web/20191216033221/http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Main_Page)** > [@](#): > > Pretty good for someone who allegedly barely passed the class to fly a plane. Another lie from truthers, and an old one to boot. Long debunked. > **[911myths](https://web.archive.org/web/20191216033221/http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Main_Page)** ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/153 "2010-09-15T00:10:26Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > AFTER making nearly a complete circle around the building. > > You have a funny definition of ‘Around the building’ > > Did you even look at this link previously provided? > > [911myths](http://911myths.com/html/flight_path.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > Pretty good for someone who allegedly barely passed the class to fly a plane. > > Another lie from truthers, and an old one to boot. Long debunked. > > [911myths](http://911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html) Yes, I looked at it, it says the plane did nearly a circle around the building AND where was it said that the terrorists were expert pilots? Even Fox news said they barely passed the flight classes. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/154 "2010-09-15T00:21:43Z")
Are you incapable of reading a map, or basic pattern recognition? Do you see the end point of the flight? That’s the Pentagon (obviously). Do you see where the loop is? Do you see that it doesn’t go around the end point? Do you also see that it hits the same side that the plane approached from anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/155 "2010-09-15T00:22:36Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > Yes, I looked at it, it says the plane did nearly a circle around the building :rolleyes: Look at the freaking graphic. It is not ‘around’ the building. It is nowhere near 'around the building. You didn’t read a damn thing. Otherwise you would have seen the map and the fact that it says: > [@](#): > > The turn occurred before Flight 77 reached the Pentagon. The pilot didn’t fly around it, in an apparent effort to hit a particular area: he simply aimed for the side he was approaching. Next time, try reading something besides the crazy. > [@Mozart1220](#): > > AND where was it said that the terrorists were expert pilots? Even Fox news said they barely passed the flight classes. Again, if you were being intellectually honest with us and yourself you would have read this in the other link: > [@](#): > > In 1996, Hanjour returned to the United States to pursue flight training,after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia. In 1997, he returned to Florida and then, along with two friends, went back to Arizona and began his flight training there in earnest. **After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April** 1999. They do not just hand those out. The hijackers had trouble, at first. That is what school is for. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/156 "2010-09-15T00:29:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mozart1220] Yes, I looked at it, it says the plane did nearly a circle around the building AND where was it said that the terrorists were expert pilots? Even Fox news said they barely passed the flight classes. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: No one said the pilots were experts…they simply had training. It’s not really all that hard to steer a plane once it’s in the air then crash it into something. Part of the reason for the strange seeming flight path is BECAUSE the guy wasn’t that familiar with such a maneuver. Also because he was using things like the Potomac river (that water thingy to the east of the Pentagon) and various land marks visible from the cockpit to him. If you actually look at a map it will make sense (well, it will to anyone who isn’t wedded to the bizarre idea that the Pentagon was hit by a missile, despite the tangible facts such as plane debris found at the sight, eye witness accounts of seeing a plane hit the Pentagon, eye witness accounts of the strong odor of jet fuel just after the crash, and all the other mountain of evidence showing that, yeah, it was a freaking plane that hit the Pentagon)…the guy was flying down the river, looking for land marks, saw the Pentagon, turned, was unfamiliar with making a tight turn with such an air craft so had to make a 270 degree turn while descending, nearly fucked it all up by misjudging the approach, hitting a lamp post and actually bouncing in before hitting the Pentagon. Not exactly crack piloting, but not exactly something that required an expert either. It’s fairly easy to CRASH a plane…anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of an air craft could do it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/157 "2010-09-15T00:31:33Z")
Also, it can’t simultaneously have made a turn around the Pentagon _and_ be a missile. Pick one. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/158 "2010-09-15T01:10:42Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Next time, try reading something besides the crazy. > > Again, if you were being intellectually honest with us and yourself you would have read this in the other link: > > > [@](#): > > > > In 1996, Hanjour returned to the United States to pursue flight training,after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia. In 1997, he returned to Florida and then, along with two friends, went back to Arizona and began his flight training there in earnest. **After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April** 1999. > > They do not just hand those out. The hijackers had trouble, at first. That is what school is for. Hanjour’s own instructor said he was perfectly capable of steering a plane into a building. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/159 "2010-09-15T01:41:04Z")
Well, rather obviously he was capable. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088/160 "2010-09-15T01:47:34Z")
Members of the “Truth” Movement typically stop at the instructor’s comments that Hanjour was not a good student. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-9-11-attacks-work/503088.md?page=9)