# Did The Ancient Romans have Factories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 7, 2001, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102 "2001-03-07T13:10:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![egkelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/db5fbb/32.png) [@egkelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/egkelly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/1 "2001-03-07T13:10:35Z")
I just finished watching a very good video of the Roman ruins at Pompeii and Herculaneum. Seeing the wide variety of artifacts, I was struck by the thought that the Romans must have had some kind of rudimentary system for mass-production of these goods. For example, Pompeii was a town of perhaps 25,000, and it had many fine houses, each with wonderfully-made mosaic floors. Surely the Romans must have had mass-production of mosaic tiles. At the peak of their empire, they had a large population, with a fairly affluent middle class-there must have been a huge demand for clothes, cutlery, furniture, plumbing, etc. So did they have factories to make these things? I find it hard to believe that such a huge volume of stuff could be made one at a time, by individual artisans. I thought factories came in in the 17th century (in Europe and America)-were the Romans actually the first? ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/2 "2001-03-07T13:48:20Z")
Slaves. They had slaves. The slaves outnumbered the owners considerably. Also, Roman towns didn’t spring up suddenly, necessitating immediate mass production. They grew gradually over a number years and while yes, they probably did make these tiles (and other things) faster than we would do now (if we didn’t use factories and modern machinery), it’s mainly because they were very well practised. Also, there were also a lot fewer career paths available then and therefore a greater workforce in each profession. Fran ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/3 "2001-03-07T14:04:57Z")
I don’t know why you’d make those assumptions. The “individual artisans” probably weren’t “individuals” as such…they would have owned _slaves_. The population of the U.S. in the early 19th century was much larger than ancient Pompeii, but it mass-produced enough cotton products for its people without the need for factories, thank you very much and I think you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/4 "2001-03-07T14:07:50Z")
Well, it’s sort of a myth that the Romans were incredibly advanced for their time. You can easily find quotes that the Romans had lead plumbing, running hot and cold water, flush toilets and advanced sewer systems, etc. In truth, very few people had the money and inclination to have many of the luxuries like that. And Roman cities are/were typically pretty old when they were in active use. Thus, things developed over time. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/5 "2001-03-07T14:11:21Z")
Damn, **Francesca** …I either need to read faster or post faster. Or not post at all. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/6 "2001-03-07T15:52:03Z")
It depends on what you mean by “factories”. A lot of terra cotta pieces were produced from molds. Instead of someone having to carefully mold and sculpt each antefix, with its decorative plate, you just filled it into a mold with the decoration already carved into it, then took it out and let it air-dry before firing it. You do the same thing with bricks. Coins were also produced by stamping with dies. This all looks and feels a lot like modern factories. Of course, slaves did the work, but how different is it, really? In one episode of “I, Claudius” on PBS they showed Roman book publishing. I always wondered how they did that in pre-Gutenberg days. Answer: Just like Medieval monks. You get a lot of quills and desks in a well-lit room, and a lot of willing labor (you don’t whip scribes – not if you want legible and accurate results). ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/7 "2001-03-07T17:05:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Slaves. They had slaves. The slaves outnumbered the owners considerably. Not everywhere, not all the time, and not in many, many industries. At any rate, how does Roman reliance on slave labor answer the question? Child labor in the 19th century can certainly be equated to slavery, yet it is difficult to deny that there were factories in England. > [@](#): > > Also, Roman towns didn’t spring up suddenly, necessitating immediate mass production. Actually, in many places, they did. The Greco-Roman tradition of city foundation is old and venerable. Rome certainly wasn’t built in a day, but the Romans founded some of their mightiest cities from absolutely nothing. > [@](#): > > Also, there were also a lot fewer career paths available then and therefore a greater workforce in each profession This is curious logic. _Population_ was lower. That is the only detail relevant to the relative size of the workforce. > [@](#): > > n one episode of “I, Claudius” on PBS they showed Roman book publishing. I always wondered how they did that in pre-Gutenberg days. Answer: Just > like Medieval monks. You get a lot of quills and desks in a well-lit room, and a lot of willing labor (you don’t whip scribes – not if you want legible and > accurate results). We know virtually nothing about Roman publishing practices. Some allusive comments are made in the Moral Letters of Seneca and the Odes of Horace. The “scriptorium” in I, Claudius is pure conjecture. As for answering the OP’s question…I would have to say yes. First of all, not all of the labor was performed by slaves. It was simply too time consuming and expensive to train a large body of slaves to manufacture goods. _Much_ labor was slave-based, but it is tempting to overestimate the importance of slave labor in urban manufacture. Factories existed in the ancient world long before the rise of Rome. In Demosthenes’ Speech #36 _For Phormio_, Demonsthenes remarks no less than six times on one of the objects of dispute: a large shield factory. > [@](#): > > As soon, then, as they had released the defendant from the lease, men of Athens, they at once divided between them the bank and the shield factory, and Apollodorus, having the choice, chose the shield factory in preference to the bank. Section 11. In his speech _Against Aphobus_, Demosthenes also mentions a factory: > [@](#): > > Therippides, however, who had charge of the slaves for seven years, has submitted an account of eleven minae a year, four minae a year less than it should have been; and the defendant who had charge of the business at the first for two years shows no profit whatever, but says sometimes that the factory was idle, and sometimes that he was not himself the manager, but that the foreman, Milyas, a freedman of ours, had charge of it, and that I should look for an accounting from him. Another shield factory appears in Lysias’ famous speech _Against Eratosthenes_: > [@](#): > > As Peison and I were coming out, we were met by Melobius and Mnesitheides, who were on their way from the factory: they lighted upon us just at the door, and asked where we were going. Lysias’ own family was prosperous from the ownership of yet _another_ shield factory with over 100 employees until it was shut down by the Thirty in 403 BC. If you are not satisfied with literary references to the factory, perhaps you will be convinced by an archaeological one. > [@](#): > > Our four oinochoai, which were presumably found together, are evidently products of one factory, and quite as evidently decorated by one hand. From LD Caskey and JD Beazley, _Attic Vase Painting in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston_. A quick search of the _Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites_ turned up over two dozen references. A water pipe factory in Piedmont: > [@](#): > > In the area of the W suburb ceramics workshops and a factory producing earthen water pipes have been discovered. A tile factory in Marseilles: > [@](#): > > From the Roman era there is a large villa between the canal and the Saone, only partially excavated, where a mosaic with marine motif was found; a factory which produced tiles and ordinary pottery; a cemetery in which a sarcophagus was found with a lid bearing a bust of the deceased in the center and tragic masks at the corners. A war factory in Paris: > [@](#): > > From Diocletian’s time, the city’s state run factory engaged in the production of swords. So yes, there were definitely factories in the ancient world. MR ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/8 "2001-03-07T17:34:15Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/9 "2001-03-07T18:26:46Z")
Maeglin: Yeah, you looked it up. I only had what I could remember. Nyahh! Seriously, though, as far as the scriptorium goes, it’s hard to imagine another way for them to have done it. I doubt if the Romans had some quick printing or reproducing process that we have no record of or remains of (Kinkos of Ancient Rome? Protomimeograph?), so that leaves only having people copy it out by hand. If you want to see an interesting approach to the whole business (and how you would go about starting up a printing press in Ancient Rome) see L. Sprague de Camp’s classic sf novel “Lest Darkness Fall”. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/10 "2001-03-07T19:15:36Z")
Cal, I looked some of it up. The part about Roman publishing I just remembered. 😃 One of my teachers was a specialist in Roman literacy; naturally, he had the straight dope on publishing as well. It is easy but problematic to assume that the only way to mass-produce documents is via a scriptorium. What we _do_ know is that documents called _exemplars_ were written and frequently passed around for individuals (or their scribes) to copy. Horace mentions briefly the idea of hanging his works, with the ink still wet, on columns for people to read. This is rather opaque, and it’s quite likely that either Horace is just being his usual metaphorical self or that he is full of feces. Official documents did come out of a Repiblican or Imperial office, but the details are largely obscure to us. MR ---
**Author:** ![egkelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/db5fbb/32.png) [@egkelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/egkelly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/11 "2001-03-07T19:30:44Z")
Another thing I forgot to mention: the Romans must have had some factory-mass production of clothing, if only to equip their large standing armies. I would expect that at the time of the late empire (ca 300 AD) Rome would have fielded and army of at least 100,000 men , at any given time. In addition 9as has been pointed out) such items as swords, shields, body armor were made vis mass-production. This raises the interesting question-why did not the Romans move beyong hand-opersted machines, and develop engines capable of driving more complicated machines? Then the world would have entered the inductrial age some 1500 years before it did-I wonder where we would be today, had this happened. Asdaan aside, a few years ago, a Roman well was discovered in Englans, and at the bottom was found a bikini (made from deerskin). Modern fashion experts examined it, and found it to be quite modern in style. too bad the Romans never advanced beyond the level of the 3rd century! ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/12 "2001-03-07T22:09:44Z")
In Britain ,at least, the Romans had factories making forts and other woodern buildings. These were produced in kit-form and then shipped out to the frontiers for quick assembly. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/13 "2001-03-08T04:25:54Z")
Maeglin: you wrote: It is easy but problematic to assume that the only way to mass-produce documents is via a scriptorium. What we do know is that documents called exemplars were written and frequently passed around for individuals (or their scribes) to copy. Horace mentions briefly the idea of hanging his works, with the ink still wet, on columns for people to read. This is rather opaque, and it’s quite likely that either Horace is just being his usual metaphorical self or that he is full of feces. Official documents did come out of a Repiblican or Imperial office, but the details are largely obscure to us. I’m not sure I understand you. Aside from posting your stuff in the pubic square, or having a copy passed from person to person, how CAN you “publish”, aside from using a scriptorium? The former method, however, isn’t suited to long works, and the latter taks a LONG time. This doesn’t jibe with all the references to “publication” I’ve com across in my readings about the Roman world. In articular, I’ve always heard that Julius Caesar “published” his works to romote himelf. That certainly sounds like mass production, which implies a scriptorium. When I looked up “publish” and “bookseller” on the Perseus Project I found several hundred entries. Granted many of them are late, and in many cases “publish” can mean “post”, but there are a lot of cases where it is hard to square the use with anything but mass publication. The very idea of “bookseller” requires the existence of a large stock of books. In particular, I note the following: 17] librariorum: generally used throughout this and the Augustan period of a mere copyist (scriba; cf. Hor. A.P. 354 scriptor si peccat idem librarius usque), but here of a copyist who is also a bookseller; in later Latin it is used of a true bookseller (bibliopola), who, however, usually employed a staff of copyists; cf. Sen. Ben. 7.6.1 libros dicimus esse Ciceronis; eosdem librarius suos vocat. (located at [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0004&query=commline%3D%23327&word=bookseller](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0004&query=commline%3d%23327&word=bookseller) . See also [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0021&query=section%3D%2359&word=bookseller](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0021&query=section%3d%2359&word=bookseller) .) ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/14 "2001-03-08T05:05:29Z")
Couldn’t you write something once on the right kind of surface with a lot of ink, then press-transfer it to several other sheets? Or press with woodcuttings? There was primitive printing before movable type. ---
**Author:** ![Huntingdoginthedoghouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Huntingdoginthedoghouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huntingdoginthedoghouse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/15 "2001-03-08T06:20:03Z")
There have been factories since the Iron Age. Metalurgy requires a lot of people operating in concert, and so does sustained pottery operations. To a modern casual observer, the former closely resembles a modern artglass foundry, and the latter a small pottery company. These factory forms of organization were also runnin throughout the Americas long before the Mayans. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/16 "2001-03-08T14:05:17Z")
[http://www.langdale.co.uk/lifestyle/aut00/feature.htm](http://www.langdale.co.uk/lifestyle/aut00/feature.htm) > [@](#): > > The earliest settlers to have left their mark in the hills and valleys of what is now Cumbria were Neolithic people whose burial mounds and great stone circles - many of which still stand - suggest that communities had been established betwen four and six thousand years ago. > \ > Neolithic settlers were also industrious. Remnants of an axe factory have been discovered on Pike O’Stickle in the Langdale Valley (Central Lakes). Here hard volcanic rock was extracted and fashioned into sharp points, making tools that have been found all over Britain. [http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba37/ba37regs.html](http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba37/ba37regs.html) > [@](#): > > To many visitors the Lake District is a tranquil landscape where we go to get away from it all. With a tourism industry generating over 12 million visitors every year, the area’s peaceful qualities could be regarded as being under threat, but the view that the Lake District is a quiet retreat is in any case something of a fallacy. > > Few people now associate the area with the industrial revolution, or with industrial remains. Yet it can claim a number of `firsts’ in terms of industry. Not least among them is the Neolithic axe factory in Great Langdale, in use about 5,500 years ago, which produced the raw material for the impressive green-stone polished axes of the period. > > Further north on the slopes of the north-eastern pinnacle of the Skiddaw massif, Carrock Fell, lies a rare outcrop of gabbro stone. This was used in the Bronze Age for making distinctive battle axes. Although these products were more for ritual than everyday use the quarrying, manufacture and subsequent trade in them allows us to regard the area as an `industrial region’ in prehistoric terms. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancient-romans-have-factories/57102/17 "2001-03-08T16:02:02Z")
Cal, But we still have little idea what it _means_ to have published books. When we say that JC “published” his works to promote himself, I challenge to single out any Roman scholar of quality who _really_ knows what that means. We don’t know the quantities, we don’t know the content, and we are far from sure about the method. The “very idea of bookseller” may denote a large quantity of books to _us_, but this tells us nothing about Roman booksellers. Fact is, it is easy to make educated guesses. But even Horace, a clerk and scribe in the household of Augustus himself, tells us almost nothing about his job. Except that he didn’t like it. 😉 MR