# Did the ancients really frequently practice infanticide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317 "2013-08-04T13:29:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/1 "2013-08-04T13:29:54Z")
I’ve heard it claimed, I don’t think I believe it. Supposedly it ended amongst the Norse with the advent of Christianity, led to high Jewish population growth in the classical world because they didn’t practice it, and so on. But I’ve never seen any evidence for it at all. The Spartans, for example, are supposed to have thrown deformed children down a big hole. Archaeology shows a distinct lack of child bones down that hole, which seems to have actually been used to dispose of criminals. The Spartans also had at least one deformed king. So, did it really happen, in the Viking lands, the Roman Empire or Hellas? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/2 "2013-08-04T14:47:42Z")
Numerous charred child bones have been found on a site in Carthage that is supposed to have been a sacrificial place. However, this is disputed by some historians/archeologists (could have been the remains of stillborns/children dead in infancy who, for some religious reason or another, would have been burnt and burried there, for instance) ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/3 "2013-08-04T17:26:57Z")
Indisputably, according to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide), and not just by the ‘ancients’. It’s something that happens even in this day and age. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/4 "2013-08-05T02:50:35Z")
I just read about the “myth” of Sparta and infanticide, pointing out the lack of infant remains in that pit as proof that it never happened. Since newborns have bones which are in the process of hardening, wouldn’t it be likely that such soft tissue would decay or be eaten? ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/5 "2013-08-05T05:42:50Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > I just read about the “myth” of Sparta and infanticide, pointing out the lack of infant remains in that pit as proof that it never happened. > > Since newborns have bones which are in the process of hardening, wouldn’t it be likely that such soft tissue would decay or be eaten? And if it was a pit that was open to the elements (and animals), after 2000+ years, I would be very surprised to find _any_ bones, dating from that period. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/6 "2013-08-05T13:10:01Z")
[Ahnold Schwarzenegger]It’s not a [del]tumah[/del] pit.[/Ahnold Schwarzenegger] Maybe the fantasy movie “300” is the [modern] source of this “pit” myth? I see there’s a reference to a pit in Wikipedia too… [QUOTE=Wikipedia] If they considered it “puny and deformed”, the baby was thrown into a chasm on Mount Taygetos known euphemistically as the Apothetae (Gr., ἀποθέται, “Deposits”). [/QUOTE] …but I’d always read that the Spartans abandoned children they considered unfit **on a hillside** to die of exposure. [Cite](http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm) [Here’s a cite](http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-reasons-it-wasnt-easy-being-spartan) that suggests the pit story is a myth and endorses the hillside exposure: > [@](#): > > The ancient historian Plutarch claimed these “ill-born” Spartan babies were tossed into a chasm at the foot of Mount Taygetus, but most historians now dismiss this as a myth. If a Spartan baby was judged to be unfit for its future duty as a soldier, it was most likely abandoned on a nearby hillside. Left alone, the child would either die of exposure or be rescued and adopted by strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/7 "2013-08-05T13:12:50Z")
Added too late: if what most historians have said (hillside) is true, then obviously excavation of a pit will not prove anything about Spartan practice of infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/8 "2013-08-05T13:15:29Z")
Considering the high level of infant mortality in ancient times, I suspect that they would have been unlikely to be chucking them down pits. Handicapped and sickly children would be less likely to survive that fit healthy ones. Consider what happens in poor and primitive places today. The general consensus is that the more children you have, the more likely you are to have someone to support you in your old age. If it is true that jews had a higher survival rate, it may be down to their dietary rules or some other effect related to the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/9 "2013-08-05T13:38:23Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Considering the high level of infant mortality in ancient times, I suspect that they would have been unlikely to be chucking them down pits. Handicapped and sickly children would be less likely to survive that fit healthy ones. That’s precisely why the Spartans at least supposedly practiced it- why waste time and resources on a baby that was unlikely to survive anyway? Better to concentrate on your healthy children, than try and save a child that was probably never going to be fully healthy. In their culture, you weren’t really a full citizen if you didn’t fight in the army- so even if your sickly child did survive, they were unlikely to be much of a support to you. Many cultures didn’t really ‘count’ a baby until it was a few months old, probably due to the high early mortality rate, and lack of alternative birth control, so it often just wasn’t seen as a big deal to dispose of unwanted babies. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/10 "2013-08-05T19:41:47Z")
Re The Vikings I don’t think I’ve ever come across stories of infanticide in Norse culture. All the references I’ve read of human sacrifice involved adults. Re The Spartans I agree with the other Dopers. The recommended procedure was staking the infant to a hillside in the wilderness, not throwing them down a pit. OTTOMH the myth of Oedipus has him being left on a hillside, not a pit. I was under the impression that archeological evidence backed up tales of Moloch worshipers burning babies alive. I was also under the impression that Aztecs were just nuts for sacrificing infants. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/11 "2013-08-05T20:21:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re The Vikings > > I don’t think I’ve ever come across stories of infanticide in Norse culture. All the references I’ve read of human sacrifice involved adults. > > Re The Spartans > > I agree with the other Dopers. The recommended procedure was staking the infant to a hillside in the wilderness, not throwing them down a pit. OTTOMH the myth of Oedipus has him being left on a hillside, not a pit. > > I was under the impression that archeological evidence backed up tales of Moloch worshipers burning babies alive. I was also under the impression that _ **Aztecs were just nuts for sacrificing infants** _. (bolding mine) Cite, please? _My_ impression of the Aztecs was that they were pretty much nuts about sacrificing, period. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/12 "2013-08-05T21:24:54Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Cite, please? > _My_ impression of the Aztecs was that they were pretty much nuts about sacrificing, period. :eek: I may have overstated the case and bow to your ammended version. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/13 "2013-08-05T21:51:04Z")
This article from [National Geographic](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/israel/ashkelon-text/4) supports the theory that the Romans in Palestine probably practiced infanticide - at the site of a bathhouse (possibly a brothel) up to 100 infant skeletons were found 74% male. > [@](#): > > Excavation of an ancient sewer under the bathhouse revealed one of Stager’s most unsettling discoveries—the fragile bones of more than a hundred infants. The newborns had been thrown into the gutter, along with animal bones, pottery sherds, and a few coins. > > “We know that infanticide was widely practiced by the ancient Greeks and Romans,” says Pat Smith, a physical anthropologist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem who studied the bones. “It was regarded as the parents’ right if they didn’t want a child. Usually they killed girls. Boys were considered more valuable—as heirs or for support in old age. Girls were sometimes viewed as burdens, especially if they needed a dowry to marry.” > > Two of Smith’s colleagues, Marina Faerman and Gila Kahila Bar-Gal, determined the sex of the infants using DNA-based techniques. Many skeletons were incomplete, but the two scientists did salvage 43 left femurs, or thigh bones. Nineteen yielded DNA that could be analyzed. Of those, 14, or 74 percent, were male. Puzzled by this apparently high percentage of boy babies killed, the researchers speculate that these infants were the unwanted offspring of courtesans serving the bathhouse. The proprietor or courtesans might well have reared some children to pursue the same profession; the excess would have been killed and discarded. Although both sexes worked as prostitutes in the Roman world, the researchers believe that there was probably more demand for women. However, a Roman site in the UK where many [infant bones were discovered](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14401305) has been more contentious - claims that the building was a brothel has been disputed due to the lack of a major population centre to support it. Other researchers postulate that the site may have been a religious birthing centre, and the infants were still-born or died soon after birth. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/14 "2013-08-05T23:02:59Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > Indisputably, according to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide), and not just by the ‘ancients’. It’s something that happens even in this day and age. ☹ I read that entire Wikipedia article yesterday and it has got to be about the saddest thing on the internet. Frowny face doesn’t seem like enough. ---
**Author:** ![Fact\_of\_the\_Matter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Fact\_of\_the\_Matter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fact_of_the_Matter)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/15 "2013-08-05T23:29:05Z")
There was a recent article/study speculating that monogamy might have come about due to infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![HipGnosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/76d3ee/32.png) [@HipGnosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HipGnosis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/16 "2013-08-06T02:06:51Z")
> [@Fact\_of\_the\_Matter](#): > > There was a recent article/study speculating that monogamy might have come about due to infanticide. Cite please ---
**Author:** ![SuperAbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@SuperAbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperAbe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/17 "2013-08-06T03:58:36Z")
> [@HipGnosis](#): > > Cite please [Here you go.](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/07/24/1307903110) (And here’s a [Guardian piece on the study](http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/29/mystery-of-monogamy-scientists-report).) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ancients-really-frequently-practice-infanticide/665317/18 "2013-08-07T08:31:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re The Vikings > > I don’t think I’ve ever come across stories of infanticide in Norse culture. All the references I’ve read of human sacrifice involved adults. I don’t think the OP is referring to human sacrifice but to infanticide as “family planning”, and exposure of children is well known as a practice in Norse Scandinavia. > **[Íslendingabók | 7. Conversion of Iceland to Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Icelanders#7._Conversion_of_Iceland_to_Christianity)** > > King Olaf I of Norway sends the missionary priest Þangbrandr to Iceland to convert the inhabitants to Christianity. He has some success in baptizing chieftains but also meets opposition and ends up killing two or three men who had composed libellous poetry about him. He returns to Norway after one or two years with a litany of complaints and tells the king that he has little hope that the country can be converted. The king is furious at hearing the news and threatens to hurt or kill Icelanders in... > [@](#): > > Before reciting the compromise he has come up with Þorgeirr gets his audience to pledge themselves to a solution with one set of laws for all the country. Þorgeirr then decrees that everyone not already baptized must convert to Christianity. Three concessions are made to the pagans. > > 1. **The old laws allowing exposure of newborn children will remain in force.** > 2. The old laws on the eating of horsemeat will remain in force. > 3. People can make pagan sacrifices in private. > > Some years later those concessions are abolished.