# Did the ATF intentionally allow guns to fall into the hands of Mexican cartels? Fortune mag says no. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505 "2012-06-27T21:33:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/1 "2012-06-27T21:33:39Z")
[http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth](http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth) > [@](#): > > The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal > June 27, 2012: 5:00 AM ET > > A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust. > > … > > Quite simply, there’s a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn. [More…](http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth) Interesting development, if true. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/2 "2012-06-27T21:43:19Z")
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” R.J. Hanlon ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/3 "2012-06-27T21:47:27Z")
I haven’t read the whole article yet, but so far any stupidity doesn’t appear to be on the part of the ATF. > [@](#): > > Quite simply, there’s a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn. ETA: I should add that it appears that some of the roadblocks may be due to past NRA lobbying. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/4 "2012-06-27T22:03:14Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I haven’t read the whole article yet, but so far any stupidity doesn’t appear to be on the part of the ATF. > ETA: I should add that it appears that some of the roadblocks may be due to past NRA lobbying. And the fact that in many areas gun-running was perfectly legal. It’s a great article and goes into just how dramatically different it was for the ATF than other law enforcement agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/5 "2012-06-27T22:16:24Z")
I read this story earlier today, and if it’s accurate, it does change a lot of things about the scandal - such as making it appear the entire scandal is phony. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/6 "2012-06-28T00:28:31Z")
Man, as if there were not enough reasons already to criticize the current legislative and executive leaders of Arizona. Arizona Republican Sen. Jon Kyl has let it be know that the United States would be a better place if Eric Holder wasn’t the attorney general, when I see how the Arizona laws tied the hands of many ATF investigators, I would have to say that guys like Kyl have a nice racket going in the way they assign blame elsewhere and at the same time they ignore the mess that they have at home. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/7 "2012-06-28T00:37:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Arizona Republican Sen. Jon Kyl has let it be know that the United States would be a better place if Eric Holder wasn’t the attorney general, when I see how the Arizona laws tied the hands of many ATF investigators, I would have to say that guys like Kyl have a nice racket going in the way they assign blame elsewhere and at the same time they ignore the mess that they have at home. The ATF is a federal agency. How do state laws hinder federal investigations? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/8 "2012-06-28T00:43:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I read this story earlier today, and if it’s accurate, it does change a lot of things about the scandal - such as making it appear the entire scandal is phony. Which begs the question why all the resistance from the AG and the President. My guess would be that it involves something embarrassing like illegal aliens buying the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/9 "2012-06-28T00:48:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Man, as if there were not enough reasons already to criticize the current legislative and executive leaders of Arizona. > > Arizona Republican Sen. Jon Kyl has let it be know that the United States would be a better place if Eric Holder wasn’t the attorney general, when I see how the Arizona laws tied the hands of many ATF investigators, I would have to say that guys like Kyl have a nice racket going in the way they assign blame elsewhere and at the same time they ignore the mess that they have at home. To be fair Kyl is a US Senator not a State Senator and has no say in Arizona state laws. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/10 "2012-06-28T00:50:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which begs the question why all the resistance from the AG and the President. My guess would be that it involves something embarrassing like illegal aliens buying the guns. Or Issa wants documents that can’t be shared because of security concerns. Issa is pushing a right-wing conspiracy theory and Holder has cooperated extensively. It makes sense that eventually he would ask for something that can’t be shared. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/11 "2012-06-28T00:53:43Z")
Interesting article - did Voth write it for them? Reading this feels like a reprint of press release in a business publication. At first skim, questions I have: 1. How did Fortune get access to 2,000 confidential files? > [@](#): > > Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time. Maybe they should provide them to Congress, since ATF seems to want to use Executive Privilege. 1. What Fortune writer uses the term “long-gun”? > [@](#): > > The group had little equipment and no long guns That sounds like a parroted quote from the interviews with Voth. Now, even with my skeptic’s specs on - this does appear to show the Fast & Furious debacle to be more of an incompetent manager (Voth) / laziness (Hurley) than a scandal. But if that was true, why didn’t ATF just share all of this with Congress? Hang Hurley out to dry and protect your organization! Very interesting - can’t wait to see what comes next. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/12 "2012-06-28T00:58:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which begs the question why all the resistance from the AG and the President. My guess would be that it involves something embarrassing like illegal aliens buying the guns. That’s not what “begs the question” means. I think you mean “raises the question”. The answer to the question of why Obama asserted executive privilege (which I assume is what you mean) is that the Justice Department says that the documents are related to ongoing criminal investigations and thus cannot be released. It strikes me that, assuming this article is correct, it doesn’t raise any such question. If it’s correct then it eliminates the question since, if there’s nothing to hide, then the Justice Department’s claims are perfectly reasonable and believable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/13 "2012-06-28T01:05:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That’s not what “begs the question” means. I think you mean “raises the question”. The answer to the question of why Obama asserted executive privilege (which I assume is what you mean) is that the Justice Department says that the documents are related to ongoing criminal investigations and thus cannot be released. > > It strikes me that, assuming this article is correct, it doesn’t raise any such question. If it’s correct then it eliminates the question since, if there’s nothing to hide, then the Justice Department’s claims are perfectly reasonable and believable. When statements are made about when something is known and then those statements turn out to be false then it raises questions. And the “ongoing criminal investigations” aspect of it doesn’t ring true if they’ve already been handing over information on it. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/14 "2012-06-28T01:17:54Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Interesting article - did Voth write it for them? It was written by Katherine Eban. > [@](#): > > Reading this feels like a reprint of press release in a business publication. In what way? I don’t see that at all. Anyone else get that impression from it? > [@](#): > > 1. How did Fortune get access to 2,000 confidential files? 2,000 pages, not 2,000 files, which would be a lot more that 2,000 pages. They must have gotten them from an informant. Where else? > [@](#): > > 1. What Fortune writer uses the term “long-gun”? > > That sounds like a parroted quote from the interviews with Voth. “Parroted quote”? Just what do you think “quote” means? A quote is parroted by definition. What exactly would be wrong with using Voth’s terms? > [@](#): > > Now, even with my skeptic’s specs on - this does appear to show the Fast & Furious debacle to be more of an incompetent manager (Voth) / laziness (Hurley) than a scandal. But if that was true, why didn’t ATF just share all of this with Congress? Hang Hurley out to dry and protect your organization! We don’t know what they did or didn’t share with Congress and whether or not Congress misinterpreted it (unintentionally or otherwise) in their zeal to attack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/15 "2012-06-28T01:21:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When statements are made about when something is known and then those statements turn out to be false then it raises questions. What statements were made that turned out to be false? Issa’s mistaken representation about the nature of the gun running? > [@](#): > > And the “ongoing criminal investigations” aspect of it doesn’t ring true if they’ve already been handing over information on it. Seriously? I have to explain this? Not all information is equal. Some documents are confidential and some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/16 "2012-06-28T01:26:51Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What statements were made that turned out to be false? [When AG Eric Holder knew about the operation.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html) > [@davidm](#): > > Seriously? I have to explain this? Not all information is equal. Some documents are confidential and some aren’t. Yes, you have to explain it. This is a Congressional investigation and not a FOIA request. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/17 "2012-06-28T01:27:36Z")
I am constantly amazed at how gullible the Republicans are. The very concept of this conspiracy theory requires that Obama gave guns to Mexican criminals, hoping that they would murder people. That Obama literally _set up innocent people to get murdered to further his political goals_. The God-damn stupidity of the people who bought into this is very upsetting. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/18 "2012-06-28T01:32:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The ATF is a federal agency. How do state laws hinder federal investigations? One would think that they do not, but in practice local enforcement can make it harder. [http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/](http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/) > [@](#): > > By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa’s congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then. > > Prosecutors: Transferring guns is legal in Arizona > > This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley’s judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona. “[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful,” Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney’s then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. “Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime.” (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, “I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter.” Cunningham’s attorney also declined to comment.) > > It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/19 "2012-06-28T01:33:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To be fair Kyl is a US Senator not a State Senator and has no say in Arizona state laws. Well, you are correct there, but I think it is too much to assume that Kyl was that ignorant of what was actually happening. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/20 "2012-06-28T01:36:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > One would think that they do not, but in practice local enforcement can make it harder. > > [http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/](http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/) The quote you cite talks about federal prosecutors thwarting ATF. “Federal prosecutors”. That is, Holder’s people. Not Arizona state officials. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505.md?page=2)