# Did the ATF intentionally allow guns to fall into the hands of Mexican cartels? Fortune mag says no. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505 "2012-06-27T21:33:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/21 "2012-06-28T01:46:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > One would think that they do not, but in practice local enforcement can make it harder. I hate to sound obtuse but why would federal prosecutors be going after someone for anything other than violating federal laws? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/22 "2012-06-28T01:46:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The quote you cite talks about federal prosecutors thwarting ATF. “Federal prosecutors”. That is, Holder’s people. Not Arizona state officials. That was the “U.S. Attorney in Phoenix” I’m not experienced on that, but the gist of the report is that no Federal agent goes alone into an state, they get to work with the agents that are assigned to the locals and that are involved with them. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/23 "2012-06-28T01:47:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [When AG Eric Holder knew about the operation.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html) Well gee, lets see. The judiciary committee was asking him about an operation where ATF agents were deliberately aiding in the smuggling of guns. Could it be that he didn’t recognize it as being the same operation as one he read a briefing about a year ago that _didn’t_ involve the deliberate smuggling of guns by ATF agents? I know. You’re going to say that he should have recognized it by the name “Fast and Furious”. How many briefings do you think Holder receives daily, and why would this one particular briefing stand out and stick in his memory? Does he even read every briefing personally? > [@](#): > > Yes, you have to explain it. This is a Congressional investigation and not a FOIA request. I just did explain it. I guess I have to do it again. Not all information is equal. Some documents are confidential and some aren’t. Now maybe you can explain to me why it’s not being a FOIA request is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/24 "2012-06-28T01:53:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I am constantly amazed at how gullible the Republicans are. The very concept of this conspiracy theory requires that Obama gave guns to Mexican criminals, hoping that they would murder people. That Obama literally _set up innocent people to get murdered to further his political goals_. > > The God-damn stupidity of the people who bought into this is very upsetting. No, the controversy involves a government program designed to follow illegal gun purchases alerted them by gun dealers. They tracked them to the border and waved goodbye in the hopes that the Mexican government would track them. So far, it hasn’t worked well. When asked to explain it the AG has been slow to respond. That’s not a conspiracy. It’s something that’s politically embarrassing during an election cycle. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/25 "2012-06-28T01:55:20Z")
The BATFE is not looking at Congressional contempt charges. The head of the Just-Us department, Eric Holder, is. What does the article actually say? _It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The **federal prosecutors** there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them._ The BATFE agents witnessed firearms being purchased illegally. The agents wanted to make an arrest but were ordered not to. The federal firearms check alerted authorities that someone who was NOT allowed to purchase firearms in the U.S. was attempting to violate the law by buying firearms. Federal prosecutors ordered agents not to make an arrest. Federal prosecutors ordered the gun shops to sell the firearms regardless of the fact that the sale was actually illegal. Federal prosecutors ordered guns shops to violate federal law and make the sale. This article says that the BATFE did not allow guns to walk out of the U.S. and into Mexico and that somehow makes the case against Holder and the Just-Us department invalid. It doesn’t. The BATFE agents are pointing their fingers at the Just-Us department. What did Holder know and when did he know it? And now that Obama has claimed Executive Privilage for the F&F operation and what’s occured afterward - What did Obama know and when did he know it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/26 "2012-06-28T01:58:53Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Well gee, lets see. The judiciary committee was asking him about an operation where ATF agents were deliberately aiding in the smuggling of guns. Could it be that he didn’t recognize it as being the same operation as one he read a briefing about a year ago that _didn’t_ involve the deliberate smuggling of guns by ATF agents? > > I know. You’re going to say that he should have recognized it by the name “Fast and Furious”. How many briefings do you think Holder receives daily, and why would this one particular briefing stand out and stick in his memory? Does he even read every briefing personally? are you seriously going to posit that the AG doesn’t keep records of what goes on in his meetings? It’s a simple matter of electronically surfing his own records. “The dog ate my email” doesn’t work here. > [@davidm](#): > > I just did explain it. I guess I have to do it again. Not all information is equal. Some documents are confidential and some aren’t. Now maybe you can explain to me why it’s not being a FOIA request is relevant. It’s relevant because it’s a Congressional investigation. It’s their JOB to investigate stupid when it comes out the other side of the fan. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/27 "2012-06-28T01:59:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I hate to sound obtuse but why would federal prosecutors be going after someone for anything other than violating federal laws? IMHO there would had been also hell to pay for going over state laws regarding guns. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/28 "2012-06-28T02:01:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, the controversy involves a government program designed to follow illegal gun purchases alerted them by gun dealers. They tracked them to the border and waved goodbye in the hopes that the Mexican government would track them. So far, it hasn’t worked well. When asked to explain it the AG has been slow to respond. That’s not a conspiracy. It’s something that’s politically embarrassing during an election cycle. Have your read the article? It’s painting a different picture. Is it true? I don’t know, but it makes more sense then what you’re describing. The idea that the ATF would knowingly and deliberately plan for and then allow the illegal smuggling of guns into Mexico is up there with explosives in the twin towers and missiles fired at the pentagon. Add to that the claim that it was done in order to strengthen gun control laws and it’s in the stratosphere of crazy conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/29 "2012-06-28T02:03:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, the controversy involves a government program designed to follow illegal gun purchases alerted them by gun dealers. They tracked them to the border and waved goodbye in the hopes that the Mexican government would track them. So far, it hasn’t worked well. When asked to explain it the AG has been slow to respond. That’s not a conspiracy. It’s something that’s politically embarrassing during an election cycle. You’re wrong, of course. Issa has been promoting the same conspiracy theory I just mentioned. It is also being promoted by the NRA in a statement today. Next time, maybe read up on the story a bit before correcting me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/30 "2012-06-28T02:04:38Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Have your read the article? It’s painting a different picture. Is it true? I don’t know, but it makes more sense then what you’re describing. > > The idea that the ATF would knowingly and deliberately plan for and then allow the illegal smuggling of guns into Mexico. That’s exactly what the article talked about. They were alerted by gun dealers, they tried to track the proxy purchases in the hopes of catching the people organizing it. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/31 "2012-06-28T02:12:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > are you seriously going to posit that the AG doesn’t keep records of what goes on in his meetings? No. I’m not. Where did I say anything like that? > [@](#): > > It’s a simple matter of electronically surfing his own records. “The dog ate my email” doesn’t work here. I also didn’t say anything about disappearing emails. Let’s drop the straw men, please. What would he have searched on? Was it even called “Fast and Furious” when he received the original briefing? We don’t know. You’re assuming that he’s lying when there could easily be another much more mundane explanation. This just isn’t relevant to determining what the facts are. > [@](#): > > It’s relevant because it’s a Congressional investigation. It’s their JOB to investigate stupid when it comes out the other side of the fan. Correct, and … not all information is equal. Some documents are confidential and some aren’t. This is not the first time the justice department has had a dispute with congress over confidential documents. It’s very possible that some of what was requested could compromise an ongoing investigation or prosecution and it’s not unreasonable to be concerned that a Congress on a witch hunt may not do the best job of keeping confidential information confidential. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/32 "2012-06-28T02:16:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s exactly what the article talked about. They were alerted by gun dealers, they tried to track the proxy purchases in the hopes of catching the people organizing it. But you characterized it as them waving goodbye and hoping that the Mexican authorities would apprehend them. That’s a disingenuous characterization of what the article says. It says that they were blocked by laws and policies and attorneys telling them they couldn’t do certain things. That’s not the same as cavalierly waving goodbye as they disappear across the border. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/33 "2012-06-28T02:22:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The BATFE is not looking at Congressional contempt charges. The head of the Just-Us department, Eric Holder, is. > > What does the article actually say? > > _It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The **federal prosecutors** there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them._ > > The BATFE agents witnessed firearms being purchased illegally. The agents wanted to make an arrest but were ordered not to. > > The federal firearms check alerted authorities that someone who was NOT allowed to purchase firearms in the U.S. was attempting to violate the law by buying firearms. Federal prosecutors ordered agents not to make an arrest. > > Federal prosecutors ordered the gun shops to sell the firearms regardless of the fact that the sale was actually illegal. Federal prosecutors ordered guns shops to violate federal law and make the sale. > > This article says that the BATFE did not allow guns to walk out of the U.S. and into Mexico and that somehow makes the case against Holder and the Just-Us department invalid. It doesn’t. > > The BATFE agents are pointing their fingers at the Just-Us department. > > What did Holder know and when did he know it? > > And now that Obama has claimed Executive Privilage for the F&F operation and what’s occured afterward - What did Obama know and when did he know it? You know, I was on the fence about this. It’s hard to keep track of who did what. Was there wrongdoing? Was there a conspiracy? I just didn’t know. But your masterful and repeated use of the phrase “Just-Us department” really seals the deal, here. I’m convinced. Off with their heads! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/34 "2012-06-28T02:26:30Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > No. I’m not. Where did I say anything like that? "How many briefings do you think Holder receives daily, and why would this one particular briefing stand out and stick in his memory? Does he even read every briefing personally? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/35 "2012-06-28T02:30:41Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But you characterized it as them waving goodbye and hoping that the Mexican authorities would apprehend them. That’s a disingenuous characterization of what the article says. It says that they were blocked by laws and policies and attorneys telling them they couldn’t do certain things. That’s not the same as cavalierly waving goodbye as they disappear across the border. The guns disappeared and then resurfaced in a Border Patrol death. Put whatever lipstick you want on that pig. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/36 "2012-06-28T02:35:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > But your masterful and repeated use of the phrase “Just-Us department” really seals the deal, here. I’m convinced. Off with their heads! I was sort-of nodding along to his post, too, until I ran into that “Just-Us” stuff, at which point that record-screech sound effect interrupted my thought process. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/37 "2012-06-28T04:19:14Z")
You guys just aren’t following the logic. Eric Holder, under orders from our Muslim Kenyan president, enforced federal laws in order to prevent BATF from stopping illegal gun trafficing in order to undermine the 2nd amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/38 "2012-06-28T04:45:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You guys just aren’t following the logic. You keep using that word… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/39 "2012-06-28T04:47:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Issa is pushing a right-wing conspiracy theory . . . Is that the gun-nuts’ theory that’s going around, where Holder planned this whole thing to justify an assault-weapons ban or some shit like that? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/40 "2012-06-28T04:54:46Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Have your read the article? It’s painting a different picture. Is it true? I don’t know, but it makes more sense then what you’re describing. > > The idea that the ATF would knowingly and deliberately plan for and then allow the illegal smuggling of guns into Mexico is up there with explosives in the twin towers and missiles fired at the pentagon. Add to that the claim that it was done in order to strengthen gun control laws and it’s in the stratosphere of crazy conspiracy theories. The BATFE agents mentioned in the article are saying that Holder’s Just-Us dept refused to allow them to arrest the people making the illegal firearm purchases. The purpose of F&F was to track U.S. purchased firearms into Mexico and into the hands of the drug cartels. However, the Feds never bother to notified the Mexican authorities that the weapons were coming. How were the Mexican police/military supposed to track firearms that they weren’t aware were entering Mexico? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505.md?page=3)