# Did the ATF intentionally allow guns to fall into the hands of Mexican cartels? Fortune mag says no. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505 "2012-06-27T21:33:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/41 "2012-06-28T05:11:17Z")
Something about this deal stinks like a fish left in the sun. The first report I read about F&F was in a newspaper when the story first broke (LATimes?\*). Anyway this story had quotes from gun shop owners saying that they were specifically instructed by BATF agents to break the law. Now this story is about as far from that as Pollyanna is from Silence of the Lambs. I don’t really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to point out it would take some Major League balls to lie to the press about the agency that issues the license you need to be a gun dealer. \*In the history of the world no one has ever accuses the LA Timea of being a right wing rag. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/42 "2012-06-28T05:33:48Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But you characterized it as them waving goodbye and hoping that the Mexican authorities would apprehend them. That’s a disingenuous characterization of what the article says. It says that they were blocked by laws and policies and attorneys telling them they couldn’t do certain things. That’s not the same as cavalierly waving goodbye as they disappear across the border. This makes no sense. The claim is that they were blocked by local laws from making arrests. Did they not think this out prior to implementing the plan? Maybe run the idea up to a couple of US attorneys and to determine if they would even be able to make a case BEFORE guns were sent across the border and agents killed? If that is truly what happened, everyone involved should be fired for incompetence at the very least. It’s not like AZ gun laws are particularly hard to find in documented form nor hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/43 "2012-06-28T05:39:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I am constantly amazed at how gullible the Republicans are. The very concept of this conspiracy theory requires that Obama gave guns to Mexican criminals, hoping that they would murder people. That Obama literally _set up innocent people to get murdered to further his political goals_. > > The God-damn stupidity of the people who bought into this is very upsetting. You don’t know how badly I want to find all of the similar accusations people on the Board made against Bush2 ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/44 "2012-06-28T05:49:06Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > This makes no sense. The claim is that they were blocked by local laws from making arrests. Did they not think this out prior to implementing the plan? Maybe run the idea up to a couple of US attorneys and to determine if they would even be able to make a case BEFORE guns were sent across the border and agents killed? Did you read the article? Fast and Furious did _not_ send guns across the border. They were merely monitoring suspected straw purchasers, and trying to build a case that would convince an overly cautious Assistant US Attorney that the suspects in question had provably broken very permissive state and/or federal gun laws. The guns used in the shooting of the agent were purchased by one of the people they were watching, and the seller thought it seemed suspicious so he faxed the ATF the information, but by the time they got it, it was three days later. The guns in question were never in any way under ATF supervision. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/45 "2012-06-28T10:10:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I read this story earlier today, and if it’s accurate, it does change a lot of things about the scandal - such as making it appear the entire scandal is phony. I’m shocked, shocked that a Republican-trumpeted Obama scandal is actually complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/46 "2012-06-28T11:42:41Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I haven’t read the whole article yet, Always a great thing to read in an OP. “I haven’t even finished reading this article yet, but I’m going to run to the SDMB and tell everyone how right it is!” The article is, of course, all bullshit and slanderous lies. Complete fabrication. And the author is probably a pedophile. Mind you, I didn’t _read_ it, but it sounds like the kind of thing I might want to be true, and that’s good enough for this thread, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/47 "2012-06-28T13:51:56Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > This makes no sense. The claim is that they were blocked by local laws from making arrests. Did they not think this out prior to implementing the plan? Maybe run the idea up to a couple of US attorneys and to determine if they would even be able to make a case BEFORE guns were sent across the border and agents killed? > > If that is truly what happened, everyone involved should be fired for incompetence at the very least. It’s not like AZ gun laws are particularly hard to find in documented form nor hard to understand. The BATFE agents blamed the Justice Department for NOT authorizing any arrests. Local laws didn’t prevent BATFE agents from arresting the people who were making illegal firearm purchases. The Justice Department allowed the guns to “walk”, NOT the BATFE agents. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/48 "2012-06-28T14:26:45Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Did you read the article? Fast and Furious did _not_ send guns across the border. They were merely monitoring suspected straw purchasers, and trying to build a case that would convince an overly cautious Assistant US Attorney that the suspects in question had provably broken very permissive state and/or federal gun laws. The guns used in the shooting of the agent were purchased by one of the people they were watching, and the seller thought it seemed suspicious so he faxed the ATF the information, but by the time they got it, it was three days later. The guns in question were never in any way under ATF supervision. It seems that you weren’t the one reading for comprehension. > [@](#): > > On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez, who reimbursed him and gave him $700 for his efforts. Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, “if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it”—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns. That day, Voth wrote to remind him that money collected as evidence needed to be vouchered within five days. Dodson e-mailed back, his sarcasm fully restored: “Do the orders define a ‘day’? Is it; a calendar day? A business day or work day….? An Earth day (because a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days which would mean that I have plenty of time)?” The ATF purchased guns and didn’t follow up on them. The article does a masterful job of dressing it up and making excuses for it, but they can’t deny the simple truth of it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/49 "2012-06-28T14:27:56Z")
What’s most clear from reading this article is that these ATF agents are unprofessional to say the least and they certainly don’t deserve their six figure salaries. We should get rid of the whole department. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/50 "2012-06-28T14:40:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The ATF purchased guns and didn’t follow up on them. The article does a masterful job of dressing it up and making excuses for it, but they can’t deny the simple truth of it. The article’s thesis seems to me to be that the very agent who went and complained to Republican lawmakers about the operation is an incompetent dick who caused a lot of the problems himself. I believe his name is Dodson. As for eliminating the whole BATF, I wonder if you’d let us know what profession you’re in? I’m eager to see if all members of your profession are competent, or if we should eliminate it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/51 "2012-06-28T14:51:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which begs the question why all the resistance from the AG and the President. Yes- if they are innocent, why oh why won’t they cooperate with the nonsense conspiracy theory investigation? > [@](#): > > My guess would be that it involves something embarrassing like illegal aliens buying the guns. I’m not sure why this would be a problem for the federal government. Wouldn’t it be more of a problem for Arizona? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/52 "2012-06-28T15:15:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes- if they are innocent, why oh why won’t they cooperate with the nonsense conspiracy theory investigation? > I’m not sure why this would be a problem for the federal government. Wouldn’t it be more of a problem for Arizona? U.S. Border Patrol agent Terry was murderd on December 14, 2010. Who is responsible for allowing illegal purchased firearms to make their way to Mexico and back into the U.S. for an assult on U.S. law enforcement personel? The BATFE doesn’t know. The Justice Department doesn’t know. Holder doesn’t know. Obama doesn’t know. How is this possible? The BATFE agents are blaming the justice department for not authorizing the arrests of the people who were making the illegal firearm purchases. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/53 "2012-06-28T15:33:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The article’s thesis seems to me to be that the very agent who went and complained to Republican lawmakers about the operation is an incompetent dick who caused a lot of the problems himself. I believe his name is Dodson. Yes, I read it. But Dodson isn’t the only one who is clearly unprofessional and incompetent. Even if we buy Voth’s explanations and excuses, the incompetence is staggering. Voth’s “schism” email is ridiculous and unprofessional. Indeed, even if we buy his story as true that all he’s talking about is unwillingness to work weekends it’s still his fault that it’s so unprofessional and unclear as to what he’s even talking about. The entire staff of the team was in open revolt against their management over working weekends and other petty matters. The article claims that four of the seven agents were in “Dodson’s faction”. Here’s another guy, Casa, clearly worth the six figure salary we’re paying him: > [@](#): > > The atmosphere inside Voth’s group had become toxic. The subjects of dispute were often trivial. For example, when Voth asked Casa to turn off his computer’s Godzilla sound effect, which roared each time he got an e-mail, Casa replied, “I have done some limited research and have found no ATF order or internal division memo addressing this issue.” The article bends over backwards to make Voth look good, but you’ve still got exchanges like this: > [@](#): > > Agents were getting pulled from other field offices to assist, and on March 11, one wrote to ask Voth, “You’re not going to give the out-of-towners the crappy shifts, are you?” Voth responded, “I am attempting to split the weekends so everyone has to work one of the two days that way no one gets screwed too hard and everybody gets screwed a little bit.” Every quote and email from the article serves to makes it clear that this was a locker room, frat house atmosphere of unprofessional incompetent people. > [@](#): > > As for eliminating the whole BATF, I wonder if you’d let us know what profession you’re in? I’m eager to see if all members of your profession are competent, or if we should eliminate it, too. If I worked for an organization who’s culture was as corrupt and incompetent as the BATF then it absolutely should be shut down. This isn’t just one bad apple. The whole thing is rotten. Shut it down. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/54 "2012-06-28T15:37:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The BATFE agents are blaming the justice department for not authorizing the arrests of the people who were making the illegal firearm purchases. Don’t forget the FBI. The most interesting thing in the article was that the buyers of the guns in the first place was FBI informants using FBI dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/55 "2012-06-28T15:44:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > U.S. Border Patrol agent Terry was murderd on December 14, 2010. Who is responsible for allowing illegal purchased firearms to make their way to Mexico and back into the U.S. for an assult on U.S. law enforcement personel? I thought guns didn’t kill people, only people kill people. So “who is responsible?” That’d be the guy who pulled the trigger, and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t Holder or Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/56 "2012-06-28T15:50:58Z")
The guy who planned Fast and Furious gives an [interview](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/agent-who-started-fast-and-furious-defends-operation/2012/06/27/gJQAQviT7V_story.html) in the Washington Post today. As I read it, he says both that his plan was not to arrest straw purchasers and that prosecutors blocked the arrest of straw prosecutors. If anything, this may illustrate the difficulty of getting to the full truth of this matter. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/57 "2012-06-28T15:58:55Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > U.S. Border Patrol agent Terry was murderd on December 14, 2010. Who is responsible **for allowing illegal purchased firearms to make their way to Mexico and back into the U.S. for an assult on U.S. law enforcement personel**? > > The BATFE doesn’t know. The Justice Department doesn’t know. Holder doesn’t know. Obama doesn’t know. > > How is this possible? > > The **BATFE agents are blaming the justice department** for not authorizing the arrests of the people who were making the illegal firearm purchases. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I thought guns didn’t kill people, only people kill people. So “who is responsible?” That’d be the guy who pulled the trigger, and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t Holder or Obama. Have someone read my post to you. I want to know who in the justice department planned and controlled the F&F operation. The top members of the BATFE, FBI, the justice department, and now the Whitehouse (with the Executive Privilage edict) Do Not Want You To Know Who Is Responsible For The Death Of Agent Terry. According to Holder, it’s none of your business, so go away and stop bothering him. It’s not illegal if the AG does it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/58 "2012-06-28T16:01:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The top members of the BATFE, FBI, the justice department, and now the Whitehouse (with the Executive Privilage edict) Do Not Want You To Know Who Is Responsible For The Death Of Agent Terry. That’s not the issue, and Caps Do Not Make An Argument. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/59 "2012-06-28T16:06:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Indeed, even if we buy his story as true that all he’s talking about is unwillingness to work weekends it’s still his fault that it’s so unprofessional and unclear as to what he’s even talking about. The tone of the email definitely gave me pause. However, I’m not willing to call for his head over the tone. The impression I get from the article is that he was doing his best to fit into an environment in which he had a bunch of whiny spoiled frat-boys for employees, and he was doing his best to code-switch, to talk to them the way they talked. > [@](#): > > If I worked for an organization who’s culture was as corrupt and incompetent as the BATF then it absolutely should be shut down. This isn’t just one bad apple. The whole thing is rotten. Shut it down. We know there are up to four incompetent people here. How does that translate to an entire corrupt organization? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505/60 "2012-06-28T16:12:11Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Did they not think this out prior to implementing the plan? Maybe run the idea up to a couple of US attorneys and to determine if they would even be able to make a case BEFORE guns were sent across the border and agents killed? What plan? The ATF was monitoring suspicious gun purchases, as they routinely do, and hoping to gather evidence that would reveal that such purchases were illegal. There was no “plan” and they didn’t “send” guns across the border. They were prevented from taking any action, because they were told by prosecutors that they didn’t have sufficient evidence to take any action. > [@](#): > > “[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful,” Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney’s then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. “Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime.” > … > > It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn’t necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn’t mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize. > > None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors’ satisfaction. And, in fact, they were hamstrung by gun laws, because in order to find suspicious gun purchases, they had to personally visit about 1,000 local gun shops and page through their paper records by hand, because there was no electronic database (because of the gun lobby). All this in a law enforcement office that was insufficiently staffed and funded due solely to the vindictive hamstringing by gun-lobby legislators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-atf-intentionally-allow-guns-to-fall-into-the-hands-of-mexican-cartels-fortune-mag-says-no/626505.md?page=4)