# Did The Avengers rip off The Avengers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401 "2013-07-02T00:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/41 "2013-07-02T20:40:43Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > In the comic, do they come together to, ya know, _avenge_ anything? I don’t think they do. As someone mentioned upthread, the in-universe explanation for the name was that it sounded cool. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/42 "2013-07-02T20:42:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Remember, though, Tony Stark admitting to Loki that our heroes might not be able to protect the world from that impending invasion – but, hey, on the bright side, you can be damned sure we’ll then avenge them by gunning for you. _“There’s no throne. There’s no version of this where you come out on top.”_ “You think you’re the only superhero in the world? Mr. Stark, you’ve become part of a bigger universe. You just don’t know it yet.” “Who the hell are you?” “Nick Fury. Director of SHIELD.” “Ah.” “I’m here to talk to you about the Avenger Initiative.” “Okay, so what are you avenging?” “What?” “You said you’re called the avengers. What are you avenging?” “Well…at the moment, technically nothing…but we might have to avenge something that could happen four years from now.” “Alright, I’ll let that one pass. When do I meet the others?” “What others?” “You just said I’m not the only superhero in the world. Who will I be working with? Spider-man? The Fantastic Four? Daredevil?” “With their box office? I don’t think so. No, we’re going to wait for some better super heroes to show up and build the franchise. So I may have jumped the gun with that ‘bigger universe’ line. At the moment, I guess you are the only superhero we’ve got.” “One last question. What does SHIELD stand for?” “Now you’re just messing with me.” ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/43 "2013-07-02T20:50:32Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > In the comic, do they come together to, ya know, _avenge_ anything? Nope, they don’t. IIRC the Wasp says she likes the sound of it, but that’s the only comment. And it worked for Stan Lee’s alliterative advantage when he created “Avengers Assemble!”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/44 "2013-07-02T21:13:39Z")
Well, it worked better than his “Protectors Procurate!” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/45 "2013-07-02T21:19:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > While Conway wrote the first Man-Thing story, Wein was hired to write story for the second issue (which would have been Savage Tales #2 I suppose). But Savage Tales ended up never printing a second issue. Nitpick: There certainly WAS a second issue of Savage Tales – I Bought it. It just came out an awful long time after the first issue (which i also bought). There were other issues after that. Then they spun off "The Savage Sword of Conan as a separate series. [http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;\_ylt=A0PDoX3cQ9NRSBEAcoqJzbkF;\_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F\_adv\_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DSavage%2BTales%2B2%2Bcover%26fr%3Dyfp-t-900%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D20&w=299&h=400&imgurl=comicbookrealm.com%2Fcover-scan%2Ff8c3d303b667784148f7c66bc4d9845c%2Fl%2Fmarvel-savage-tales-issue-2.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcomicbookrealm.com%2Fseries%2F1782%2F0%2Fsavage-tales&size=49KB&name=\Savage+Tales+\<%2Fb\>1+(Marvel)+-+ComicBookRealm.com&p=Savage+Tales+2+cover&oid=eca3b6d93c452e8ca687e45fc7da08be&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-900&tt=\Savage+Tales+\<%2Fb\>1+(Marvel)+-+ComicBookRealm.com&b=0&ni=21&no=20&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11kv07d0a&sigb=13jeh1v7i&sigi=130jmhcbh&.crumb=L2MInUhYD2P&fr=yfp-t-900](http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoX3cQ9NRSBEAcoqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DSavage%2BTales%2B2%2Bcover%26fr%3Dyfp-t-900%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D20&w=299&h=400&imgurl=comicbookrealm.com%2Fcover-scan%2Ff8c3d303b667784148f7c66bc4d9845c%2Fl%2Fmarvel-savage-tales-issue-2.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcomicbookrealm.com%2Fseries%2F1782%2F0%2Fsavage-tales&size=49KB&name=%3Cb%3ESavage+Tales+%3C%2Fb%3E1+%28Marvel%29+-+ComicBookRealm.com&p=Savage+Tales+2+cover&oid=eca3b6d93c452e8ca687e45fc7da08be&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-900&tt=%3Cb%3ESavage+Tales+%3C%2Fb%3E1+%28Marvel%29+-+ComicBookRealm.com&b=0&ni=21&no=20&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11kv07d0a&sigb=13jeh1v7i&sigi=130jmhcbh&.crumb=L2MInUhYD2P&fr=yfp-t-900) > [@](#): > > The first of the two volumes of Savage Tales ran 11 issues, with a nearly 21⁄2-year hiatus after the premiere issue (May 1971, then Oct. 1973 - July 1975). > **[Savage Tales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Tales)** > > Savage Tales is the title of three American comics series. Two were black-and-white comics-magazine anthologies published by Marvel Comics, and the other a color comic book anthology published by Dynamite Entertainment. > The first of the two volumes of Savage Tales ran 11 issues, with a nearly 2.mw-parser-output .frac{white-space:nowrap}.mw-parser-output .frac .num,.mw-parser-output .frac .den{font-size:80%;line-height:0;vertical-align:super}.mw-parser-output .frac .den{vertical-align:sub}.mw-par... ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/46 "2013-07-02T21:37:30Z")
> [@irritant](#): > > Here’s the kicker: Wein and Conway were _roommates_ at the time they were working on the characters, and yet Wein maintains that he knew nothing about Man-Thing. Which is slightly dubious. But they came about simultaneously, and both, especially Man-Thing, are so clearly “inspired” by the Heap that it would be very difficult for Marvel to establish a legal case. And the Heap (1942, whatever Airboy was appearing in) was a clearly “inspired” by Theodore Sturgeon’s “It”. (1940, Unknown Magazine) I think Swamp-Thing and Man-Thing are likely coincidences, or the two roommates saying “Heh–wouldn’t it be hysterical if we both swiped “It” and published it the same week?” This had been done by Wein/Conway/Englehart and a few others before. There was a “Justice League/Fake Avengers” crossover in JLofA 87? 89? at about the same time there was an Avengers/Squadron Supreme (Fake JLA) story (the Avengers was about 1000 times better and the timing got screwed up somewhere along the way so they didn’t come out on the same month). There were also a few “crossovers” set in Rutland, VT (which had an annual super-hero Halloween parade in the early '70s. IIRC, there’s one where the writers appear in various comics and wander from one company’s Halloween issue to another’s and back again. Something about how some evil force made the people in costume get the powers of the book’s competition (so “Superduper Girl” fought, say Iron Man in his book, but Batman fought “Arachnid Boy” in his) There’s also the Doom Patrol-June '63 (Freaks, outcasts, feared and hated by a society they’ve sworn to protect, led by a man in a wheelchair) / X-Men, Sept. '63 (Mutants outcasts, feared and hated by a society they’ve sworn to protect, led by a man in a wheelchair) both of whom fought the Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants). Or Red Tornado August 1968 (red-colored robot who tended to be weepy early on, who was created by an enemy to infiltrate and destroy the team…but realized he could use his powers for GOOD!) / Vision-Oct, 1968 (red-colored robot who tended to be weepy early on, who was created by an enemy to infiltrate and destroy the team…but realized he could use his powers for GOOD! Coincidences happen. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/47 "2013-07-02T22:04:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it worked better than his “Protectors Procurate!” I read that as Protectors Procreate! Hey, Wasp. How you doin’? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/48 "2013-07-02T22:46:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No, we’re past that; we’re no longer men, we’ve moved beyond men. We are – THE EX-MEN. For more, see _Priscilla: Queen of the Desert._ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/49 "2013-07-03T00:31:30Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > There’s also the Doom Patrol-June '63 (Freaks, outcasts, feared and hated by a society they’ve sworn to protect, led by a man in a wheelchair) / X-Men, Sept. '63 (Mutants outcasts, feared and hated by a society they’ve sworn to protect, led by a man in a wheelchair) both of whom fought the Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants). > > Or Red Tornado August 1968 (red-colored robot who tended to be weepy early on, who was created by an enemy to infiltrate and destroy the team…but realized he could use his powers for GOOD!) / Vision-Oct, 1968 (red-colored robot who tended to be weepy early on, who was created by an enemy to infiltrate and destroy the team…but realized he could use his powers for GOOD! > > Coincidences happen. These could be coincidences, but it could also that the comic-book-workers’ circles were pretty small and tight, and no one had problems hashing out ideas with the other side over drinks. As the publisher owned everything, I would guess that there was less fear of it being ‘stolen’ by the creators, and everyone wasn’t as quick to lawyer up 40+ years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/50 "2013-07-03T01:28:27Z")
For sheer blatant imitation that sometimes crossed the line into plagiarism, you need to check out [The Sincerest Form of Parody: The Best 1950s MAD Inspired Satirical Comics](http://www.amazon.com/The-Sincerest-Form-Parody-Satirical/dp/1606995111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372813288&sr=8-1&keywords=sincerest+form+of+parody). About 30 seconds after MAD became a hit, every outfit in the business started putting out copies. In 1953 and 1954, newsstands saw Whack, Eh!, Crazy, Wild, Riot, Get Lost, Super Funnies, Nuts, Madhouse, Bughouse, Flip, and Unsane. (Not to mention Panic, which was put out by EC itself.) (I also probably left out several exclamation marks.) Nuts! even billed itself on the cover as “That Crazy Mad Comic.” Think that might have mislead anyone? The writers stole gags, the artists swiped poses, and everybody pounded the same plots into the ground. You’d expect parodies of Mickey Spillane, the Dan Brown of his day, but three of Martin Keen, Private Eye? Yes, there were lawsuits. Mostly, though, the imitators died because MAD’s style of humor was imitable but its actual humor wasn’t. The book is supposedly a collection of the “Best” imitators and it’s uniformly awful. (There’s a takeoff on “What’s My Line?” in which one of the guests is an octopus. “Oooh - I know what it is! It’s my new Paris girdle - from the salon of Gascon de la Fajsgfkdowwitz!” Maybe we should credit it with inventing the Captcha.) Until Stan Lee came along, comics were below pulp fiction and that was admittedly subliterates writing for subliterates. Of course everybody in comics stole from one another. They would have thought you were crazy if you didn’t. How else would you know what was selling? As long as everybody’s sales went up and went down together, it wasn’t a big deal. But make some real money and you got lawsuits, even back then. [Superman put Captain Marvel out of business.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Comics_Publications_v._Fawcett_Publications) And it only took twelve years and the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/51 "2013-07-03T02:09:23Z")
The practice you are referring to was called “swiping”. it really started in the comic strip era, where someone might take a popular character ( e.g. the Lone Ranger, Flash Gordon), tweak it a little and come up ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/52 "2013-07-03T02:16:30Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > The practice you are referring to was called “swiping”. it really started in the comic strip era, where someone might take a popular character ( e.g. the Lone Ranger, Flash Gordon), tweak it a little and come up That’s probably why I said the artists swiped poses. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/53 "2013-07-03T03:47:59Z")
Heck, they used to steal from themselves routinely. Mon-El and Star-Boy are (or at least were) major characters in the Legion of Superheroes. Each was introduced in a Superboy story. And each is a virtual copy of an _earlier_ Superboy story, since the writers had no problem recycling a plot from five years before because nobody expected some kid reading Superboy comics to still be doing so half a decade later, like some kinda arrested-development case. Mon-El’s and Star-Boy’s proto versions? The long forgotten Halk-Kar and Mars Boy, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/54 "2019-07-22T00:19:17Z")
Bumping just to add the comment that you can’t really “rip off” a title by itself when the two works don’t have anything in common and there’s no clear attempt to mislead the public by trying to imply that you’re about to see/read something that you think you already like but lo-and-behold! it’s something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/55 "2019-07-22T11:46:13Z")
We watched the Rogen/Theron film _Long Shot_ the other day. There are at least 7 films that title (or with “_The_” added) plus more if the space is eliminated or it’s made plural. A title’s just a title. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/56 "2019-07-22T12:52:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wiki sez Natasha made her comics debut in '64 – and that Diana Rigg didn’t show up as Emma Peel until '65. Although Black Widow was a frequent guest star, she didn’t join the team until #111, in 1973. And she quit the very next issue. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/57 "2019-07-22T13:42:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wiki sez Natasha made her comics debut in '64 – and that Diana Rigg didn’t show up as Emma Peel until '65. Emma Peel was created to replace a similar already existing character on that program named Catherine Gale played by Honor Blackman (first appearing in 1963). Blackman quit the show so they filled in her role with a newer agent who was incredibly popular. She predates Natasha. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401/58 "2019-07-22T14:43:52Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Emma Peel was created to replace a similar already existing character on that program named Catherine Gale played by Honor Blackman (first appearing in 1963). Blackman quit the show so they filled in her role with a newer agent who was incredibly popular. She predates Natasha. And neither one resembles Natasha as she was introduced. You can read [Tales of Suspense #52 here](https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Tales-of-Suspense-1959/Issue-52?id=35569). Natasha is just a caricature of a beautiful spy, who does not have any martial arts skills. Or anything else, but her irresistible good looks. Beautiful foreign spies were a cliche by then. Cathy Gale and Emma Peel were something new and interesting. Yes, I know that the latter got her name from the British term “man appeal,” what Americans term “sex appeal.” The British Avengers didn’t limit her that way. Stan Lee’s Black Widow did. Furs and a veil! Is 1964 the last time in history that these were considered devastatingly sexy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-avengers-rip-off-the-avengers/662401.md?page=2)