# Did the BAR have any impact on modern warfare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 6, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197 "2013-03-06T16:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/1 "2013-03-06T16:10:27Z")
I know that Clyde Barrow swore by them, but did the BAR ever instill terror on the battlefield like it did on Depression-Era law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/2 "2013-03-06T16:30:22Z")
That bad boy (along with the Bren and arguably the German MG-42) showed the world - or at least the United States Army - the value of [squad automatic weapons](http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Squad_automatic_weapon.html), a role today filled by the [M249 SAW](http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/M249_SAWS.htm) once the BAR was retired in the '50s. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/3 "2013-03-06T16:31:20Z")
I believe that [Audie Murphy used one](http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/topic/36#.UTdumJHAFW8) that was mounted to a burning tank destroyer to hold off a German onslaught at Holtzwihr France in 1945. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/4 "2013-03-06T17:11:15Z")
Some earlier threads on the Browning Automatic Rifle (and misc. other implements of destruction): > **[Why did the BAR have only 20 round magazines?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=610280)** > > Ok I don’t get it: Why did the Browning Automatic Rifle have catridge/magazines that only help 20 rounds? Why not 30? Or more? 20 rounds in an auto goes quick. Even on single fire it seems a bit scroogy to have just 20 pops. > **[WWII guns, Americans reserved better guns from use?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=646433)** > > Okay, I recall seeing this on some tv history show I cannot recall, but poking around in Wikipedia has not uncovered anything. What I heard was that when America entered WWII, they deployed soldiers with less efficient guns that were prone to... > **[WWII US Infantry Weapons](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=609668)** > > I was rewatching Band of Brothers, and I wondered what determined what weapon the US soldier carried. Most of them carried Garands of course, but who got to carry the M1A1s (Thompson) and why? If they went to officers, could privates still carry... ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/5 "2013-03-06T17:26:47Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > I believe that [Audie Murphy used one](http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/topic/36#.UTdumJHAFW8) that was mounted to a burning tank destroyer to hold off a German onslaught at Holtzwihr France in 1945. That would be > **[M2 Browning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun)** > > The M2 machine gun or Browning .50 caliber machine gun (informally, "Ma Deuce") is a heavy machine gun that was designed near the end of World War I by John Browning. While similar to Browning's M1919 Browning machine gun, which was chambered for the .30-06 cartridge, the M2 uses Browning's larger and more powerful .50 BMG (12.7 mm) cartridge. The design has had many designations; the official U.S. military designation for the infantry type is Browning Machine Gun, Cal. .50, M2, HB, Flexi The ... confirmed as the secondary armament of the type of tank destroyer in question. > **[M10 tank destroyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M10_tank_destroyer)** > > The M10 tank destroyer, formally known as 3-inch gun motor carriage M10 or M10 GMC, was an American tank destroyer of World War II. After US entry into World War II and the formation of the Tank Destroyer Force, a suitable vehicle was needed to equip the new battalions. By November 1941, the Army requested a vehicle with a gun in a fully rotating turret after other interim models were criticized for being too poorly designed. The prototype of the M10 was conceived in early 1942 and delivered i... ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/6 "2013-03-06T20:51:23Z")
Right. As badass as the BAR might have been, the Ma Deuce is a much meaner proposition. The M-2 has been around for a surprisingly long time, with only one significant update to the design (a quick-change barrel). ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/7 "2013-03-06T22:06:27Z")
The BAR felt good in 1918 but was looking rather long in the tooth by 1940; the small magazine and lack of any quick-change barrel precluded its laying down any volume of fire. And once you threw the bipod away, as most people did, it was even more of a spray-and-pray affair. They could have had the ZB26 before the war, which would surely have been readily adaptable to the .30 cartridge. As it was they cobbled together a sort-of LMG in the shape of the not-very-satisfactory M1919A6. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/8 "2013-03-07T02:27:33Z")
Paratroopers didn’t like it because of the limited mag capacity and no interchangeable barrel. But army squads benefited from it immensely especially during transport and the actual march. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/9 "2013-03-07T07:17:31Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Right. As badass as the BAR might have been, the Ma Deuce is a much meaner proposition. > > The M-2 has been around for a surprisingly long time, with only one significant update to the design (a quick-change barrel). [total side question] Is this the weapon used by the Viet Cong in the famous helicopter attack on the bridge sequence in _Apocalypse Now_? [/total side question] ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/10 "2013-03-07T13:45:45Z")
I seem to recall reading that Clyde Barrow preferred the BAR over the Thompson sub-machine gun because, while the Thompson was perfectly capable of killing the occupants of an automobile, the BAR was capable of killing people hiding behind an automobile. How did the BAR do against light armored military vehicles like say…half-tracks or Japanese light tanks? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/11 "2013-03-07T14:15:00Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > [total side question] > Is this the weapon used by the Viet Cong in the famous helicopter attack on the bridge sequence in _Apocalypse Now_? > [/total side question] I didn’t remember, so I re-watched that scene on YouTube, and it did not look like an M-2 to me. A little research produced the claim that it was [a movie-set mock-up of a DShK heavy machine gun](http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Apocalypse_Now#Fake_DShK_heavy_machine_gun_.28mock_up.29). Edit: the same site has [shots of the Browning M2 (HB)](http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Apocalypse_Now#Browning_M2HB) for comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/12 "2013-03-07T14:22:48Z")
Barrows’ personal BAR was sawn-off. I wonder how much of it’s power was lost to this modification. I’ve personally seen that particular BAR in a museum and even in it’s cut down state, the thing is huge. There’s no way little ol’ 5’5" me could have carried a regular BAR. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/13 "2013-03-08T00:15:02Z")
You’re not going to damage AFVs with rifle-calibre bullets, which they are specifically designed to keep out. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/14 "2013-03-08T03:05:12Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Barrows’ personal BAR was sawn-off. **I wonder how much of it’s power was lost to this modification.** I’ve personally seen that particular BAR in a museum and even in it’s cut down state, the thing is huge. There’s no way little ol’ 5’5" me could have carried a regular BAR. I’d WAG only a few hundred feet per second topping out at a loss of perhaps 500 FPS. The chopped barrel still looks to be about 12 inches or so. The muzzle blast and noise would be INSANE however, which was probably the primary mode of effectiveness. A short blast indoors would be like a flashbang. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/15 "2013-03-08T03:29:34Z")
Military-grade 150-grain spitzer rounds aren’t really that hot (45,000 psi max) and they can be shot out of a 12-inch barrel. 180-grain hunting loads are a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/16 "2013-03-08T03:44:54Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Military-grade 150-grain spitzer rounds aren’t really that hot (45,000 psi max) and they can be shot out of a 12-inch barrel. 180-grain hunting loads are a different matter. How does a seventeen percent difference in load make such a difference? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-bar-have-any-impact-on-modern-warfare/652197/17 "2013-03-08T04:08:58Z")
Not just the weight of the slug but also its shape (longer slug needs shorter twist and longer travel). Then there’s the powder charge. Military propellants burned faster, easily pushing the spitzer round through a short barrel. Hunting rounds would use some slower burning power, requiring a longer barrel. But going back, I just read that the improved 175-grain .30 m1 ball cartridge came out in 1926, replacing the older 1906 spitzer I was talking about. That greatly improved the 30-06.