# Did the Colorado cake maker refuse to sell the gay couple any cake, or just a custom "gay" design? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925 "2017-12-08T16:50:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/141 "2018-06-14T12:21:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Which federal law requires that a baker must make a cake? 21 USC §461 & 9 CFR §381.171(d) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/142 "2018-06-14T12:27:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Which federal law requires that a baker must make a cake? The If I Knew You Were Coming Act of 1950. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/143 "2018-06-14T14:31:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Which federal law requires that a baker must make a cake? Please cite where I said anything about a federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/144 "2018-06-14T15:09:50Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > 21 USC §461 & 9 CFR §381.171(d) \ Murder of Turkey Ham? ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/145 "2018-06-14T21:07:20Z")
Here’s a way I try to approach situations like this. The easiest first check on morality is to substitute gay people with black people because we have more history in dealing with that sort of discrimination. So “baker won’t make wedding cake for gay couple” becomes “baker won’t make wedding cake for black couple.” Try to say your “deeply held religious belief” that all black people are inferior means you don’t have to make them a wedding cake and see how far you get. Protected class or not, that’s discrimination and it’s morally repugnant. It’s also hypocritical to selectively apply such religious beliefs only to gay couples but not divorcees, interracial couples, or any number of other groups that are supposed to be just as bad if not worse according to religious doctrine. Another way to look at it is to ask if someone is being denied service because of what they “are” or because of what they “do.” This is where I think we need to make the distinction between what’s ok to refuse and what’s not. Saying no erotic cakes, no hate cakes, no violence cakes applies to everyone equally. That’s an example of “do” cakes. Even religion is choice, so no religious cakes would be legitimate IMO, because again it applies to everyone and to what they do, not what they are. For “are” cakes, these are the things that are inherent and unchangeable, and also which have little to no bearing on the cake either. This is “I won’t make a cake FOR YOU,” regardless of the cake itself. It’s no cakes for black people, no cakes for Muslims, no cakes for Nazis. That’s discrimination plain and simple. Where I think this case gets into the weeds is perhaps because the baker (and maybe some of the SC justices) think being gay is a choice, and thus a “do” rather than an “are.” That makes a gay wedding cake a thing distinct from a straight wedding cake. Of course, to make that argument you’d have to say there’s such a thing as gay wedding photographs, gay houses, gay couture, etc. So anyone should be able to order any of the types of cakes being offered. However “gay wedding cake” isn’t a thing any more than “black wedding cake” is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/146 "2018-06-14T21:34:09Z")
Jjacucyk, since it’s apparently going to be the “Arlene’s Flowers” case that really decides this more deeply, and lower courts have ruled that she needs to actually go to the wedding and coordinate things there: do you believe it’s possible to support rights for gays but still feel like “I don’t want to see it”? I would not be surprised if Anthony Kennedy feels that way. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/147 "2018-06-14T21:43:45Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > That’s what the baker offered… that the couple could buy cookies or other pre-made or generic baked goods. No he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/148 "2018-06-14T22:36:30Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > No he didn’t. Jack Phillips has been quoted extensively stating he would agree to sell pre-made goods to Mullins and Craig, the gay couple in this case. From [Denver channel 7 news](https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics/masterpiece-cakeshop-owner-says-hes-lost-40-of-business-welcomes-scotus-hearing) from June 2017 > [@](#): > > …He [Phillips] says in the particular case that landed him in court, he told the couple he “would gladly sell them birthday cakes, shower cakes, cookies brownies…but I couldn’t design a cake promoting an event in conflict with my beliefs.” The [Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-cake-20171206-story.html) and [Vox](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/5/16715048/masterpiece-cakeshop-craig-mullins-supreme-court-ruling), and the [Huffington Post](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/supreme-court-gay-wedding-cake-case_us_5a25925ee4b03350e0b8a7e0) in December 2017 all report on Phillips’ willingness to sell other pre-made goods to the couple. The decision Justice Kennedy wrote in Masterpiece Cakeshop begins > [@](#): > > Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd., is a Colorado bakery owned and operated by Jack Phillips, an expert baker and devout Christian. In 2012 he told a same-sex couple that he would not create a cake for their wedding celebration because of his religious opposition to same-sex marriages—marriages that Colorado did not then recognize—but that he would sell them other baked goods, _e.g._, birthday cakes. It seems, in fact, that Phillips asserted, and the court agreed, that he was willing to sell other pre-made goods to Mullins and Craig but he was not willing to sell a wedding cake for their same sex wedding. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/149 "2018-06-14T22:55:39Z")
He never offered to sell them pre-made goods. There are no pre-made goods to sell. Mastepiece Cakeshop does NOT have pre-made goods laying around to sell. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/150 "2018-06-14T23:10:37Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Jack Phillips has been quoted extensively stating he would agree to sell pre-made goods to Mullins and Craig, the gay couple in this case. > From [Denver channel 7 news](https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics/masterpiece-cakeshop-owner-says-hes-lost-40-of-business-welcomes-scotus-hearing) from June 2017 > > The [Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-cake-20171206-story.html) and [Vox](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/5/16715048/masterpiece-cakeshop-craig-mullins-supreme-court-ruling), and the [Huffington Post](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/supreme-court-gay-wedding-cake-case_us_5a25925ee4b03350e0b8a7e0) in December 2017 all report on Phillips’ willingness to sell other pre-made goods to the couple. > > The decision Justice Kennedy wrote in Masterpiece Cakeshop begins > It seems, in fact, that Phillips asserted, and the court agreed, that he was willing to sell other pre-made goods to Mullins and Craig but he was not willing to sell a wedding cake for their same sex wedding. Or let me put it this way. The word ‘pre-made’ appears three times in your post, but not once in the Phillips or Kennedy quotes. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/151 "2018-06-14T23:26:41Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > He never offered to sell them pre-made goods. There are no pre-made goods to sell. Mastepiece Cakeshop does NOT have pre-made goods laying around to sell. Looks like you’re right. Per SCOTUSBlog, from the original court case: > [@](#): > > In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs, but advising Craig and Mullins that he would be happy to make and sell them any other baked goods. I’m not sure, however, why you are so emphatic about this point…? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/152 "2018-06-14T23:29:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Please cite where I said anything about a federal law. But state officials cannot trump the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/153 "2018-06-14T23:30:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not sure, however, why you are so emphatic about this point…? Because this is GQ and facts matter. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/154 "2018-06-14T23:46:04Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > But state officials cannot trump the First Amendment. And this has to do with having a conversation with your pastor about the legal difficulties in discriminating against a potential client how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/155 "2018-06-14T23:54:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And this has to do with having a conversation with your pastor about the legal difficulties in discriminating against a potential client how exactly? What are you talking about, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/156 "2018-06-15T01:58:53Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > He never offered to sell them pre-made goods. **There are no pre-made goods to sell**. Mastepiece Cakeshop does NOT have pre-made goods laying around to sell. **bolding** mine While the bakery does not have pre-made wedding cakes, it does have lots of other pre-made cakes and other baked goods to sell. Jack Phillips has been interviewed [on video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLMBT6zNgN8) in his shop. There are cakes and other baked goods clearly visible in display cases as well as on the back wall. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/157 "2018-06-15T02:41:47Z")
My knowledge was first hand and appears to be out of date. The back wall items are for display and not for sale, but there does appear to be for sale items in the case. I was last in the shop in 2012. I concede this point. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/158 "2018-06-15T13:25:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What are you talking about, exactly? You asked the questions. How did you manage to confuse yourself? Impressive. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/159 "2018-06-15T14:16:16Z")
A similar topic - religion vs. rights in Canada: > **[Trinity Western loses fight for Christian law school | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trinity-western-supreme-court-decision-1.4707240)** > > Trinity Western University has lost its legal battle for a new evangelical Christian law school, with a Supreme Court of Canada ruling today that calls it "proportionate and reasonable" to limit religious rights in order to ensure open access for... > [@](#): > > **Trinity Western loses fight for Christian law school** > _Supreme Court of Canada rules that limits on religious freedom ‘reasonable’ to protect LGBT rights_ > > Trinity Western University has lost its legal battle for a new evangelical Christian law school, with a Supreme Court of Canada ruling today that calls it “proportionate and reasonable” to limit religious rights in order to ensure open access for LGBT students. > In a pair of 7-2 rulings, the majority of justices found the law societies of British Columbia and Ontario have the power to refuse accreditation based on TWU’s so-called community covenant. Basically, Trinity is a religious college that wanted to start a law school. The law societies of some provinces said they would not accredit law graduates from any such school because the students have to sign a statement affirming Christian values which included that marriage was only between a man and a woman. The law societies claimed that a lawyer must accept the law of the land in Canada, discrimination against LGBTQ is illegal and gay marriages are legal, and questioned how such a law school could honestly teach this. Trinity sued, this is the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925/160 "2018-06-15T15:14:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And this has to do with having a conversation with your pastor about the legal difficulties in discriminating against a potential client how exactly? You said: > [@](#): > > The law states that you are supposed to make the cake… There is no law that states that. GQ is supposed to be for factual answers, not hypotheticals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-colorado-cake-maker-refuse-to-sell-the-gay-couple-any-cake-or-just-a-custom-gay-design/803925.md?page=9)