# Did the Demonstrations in London "Fail?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828 "2003-11-23T08:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/21 "2003-11-23T23:20:58Z")
Another demonstration that did succeed was the one that bought down Milosovic in Belgrade a couple of years ago. That protest was also about a rigged election. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/22 "2003-11-23T23:35:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*To the barricades, Straight Dope People’s Revolutionary Front (Trotskyist)! \*\* Um, yeah, you go on ahead and pick out a good spot. We’ll be there with you right away. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/23 "2003-11-23T23:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*The kind of demonstration that happeed in London this week accomplished nothing. Why? Because they didn’t storm Parliament, unlike what happened in Georgia. > > I still say that nothing changes because of peaceful protests, except during elections, when your vote can be used as a form of protest. \*\* You’re demanding that a protest in the cause of peace be non-peaceful. Shouldn’t you instead demand that pro-peace protesters practice what they preach? Regardless, this wasn’t about _overthrowing_ either the US or UK governments, but about _correcting_ them. Nobody (well, damn few) claims that they’re so hopelessly corrupt or dictatorial that they have to be ousted entirely, which is what you seem to be demanding as the standard of success. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/24 "2003-11-24T04:29:31Z")
Demonstrating solidarity? Making connections with their fellow Britons? Letting the world know how they felt? Big success. Influencing Bush? Total failure. This man does not give a rat what the average guy thinks, or even the majority of average guys, beyond whatever it takes to get them to re-elect him. President Bush is NOT a populist… ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/25 "2003-11-24T13:37:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avenger \* > There has been no progress at all on the issues that we were told would be addressed with him - British prisonners at Gunatanamo, steel tarrifs, etc. At no time was any of this mentioned in the USA as being a matter for this visit. Ever hear of the old term “shuck-and-jive”? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/26 "2003-11-24T13:38:46Z")
The protests succeeded admirably. The goal was a great deal of public wanking by the protesters, a great deal of public wanking by the protesters ensued. Rousing success. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/27 "2003-11-24T13:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*At no time was any of this mentioned in the USA as being a matter for this visit. Ever hear of the old term “shuck-and-jive”? \*\* The Labour party said publically that they were expecting some movement on these issues. There were even rumours that the steel tariffs would be lifted. Nothing happened. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/28 "2003-11-24T14:38:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Influencing Bush? Total failure. This man does not give a rat what the average guy thinks, or even the majority of average guys, beyond whatever it takes to get them to re-elect him. President Bush is NOT a populist… \*\* Incurious George may be oblivious, but his handlers aren’t - they can’t be, anyway. It’s the _decisionmakers_’ actions that need to be influenced, and perhaps will be - we shall see. **Dogface** , thanks for yet another useless wanking comment about the protesters being useless wankers. Time to either go into the topic _thoughtfully_ or give it up, eh what, old chap? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/29 "2003-11-24T16:19:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*The Labour party said publically that they were expecting some movement on these issues. There were even rumours that the steel tariffs would be lifted. Nothing happened. \*\* Funny, the Republican party said nothing at all about lifting tariffs over here–the talk has all been in favor of maintaining the tariffs. Maybe you should have listened to US Republicans and not to UK Labour. You would have gotten a far more honest answer. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/30 "2003-11-24T16:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **Dogface** , thanks for yet another useless wanking comment about the protesters being useless wankers. Time to either go into the topic _thoughtfully_ or give it up, eh what, old chap? Pointing out the preposterousness of feelgood protesting is thoughtful contribution. Also, why did they threaten violent overthrow of the US government? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/31 "2003-11-24T16:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _By Dogface_At no time was any of this mentioned in the USA as being a matter for this visit. Ever hear of the old term “shuck-and-jive”? If you can tear yourself away from your masturbation obsession for 2 minutes, maybe you can tell us what was given as being the purpose of the visit. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/32 "2003-11-24T16:26:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Also, why did they threaten violent overthrow of the US government? \*\* Who??? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/33 "2003-11-24T20:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > Funny, the Republican party said nothing at all about lifting tariffs over here–the talk has all been in favor of maintaining the tariffs. Maybe you should have listened to US Republicans and not to UK Labour. You would have gotten a far more honest answer. That’s only if you work on the assumption that US Republicans would _give_ an honest answer. After all, it’s entirely possible that the Labour Party had the right information, and you were simply kept in the dark by the GOP… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/34 "2003-11-24T20:17:04Z")
You have one of them cite thingies for “they” and “violent overthrow” in the same statement? You also might avoid suspicions of wanking if you were to go into some actual detail about this charge of “feelgoodism” instead of simply strawmanning it. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/35 "2003-11-24T21:06:42Z")
Based on all the previous examples of Chehoslovakia, Hungary, Serbia, China, Rumania and Georgia one thing is obvious: presented with popular protests, vile rulers kill or loose power and decent rulers do neither. London protests “failed” to demonstrate that Blair (and, by implication, Bush) are not decent rulers. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/36 "2003-11-24T21:14:10Z")
**Airman D** said: > [@](#): > > The March on Washington? Nope. Other than a great speech from King, it didn’t matter, any more than any other march on Washington has mattered. The March On Washington was aimed at getting Kennedy’s attention. A similar march had been contemplated by Asa Philip Randolf in 1942, but he met with Roosevelt and the plans were scrapped. Kennedy thought it was political dynamite to meet with King and the other leaders of the nascent Civil Rights Movement. When the day began, there was no meeting scheduled. After the “I Have a Dream” speech, Kennedy summoned the ten people who had spoken that day to the White House, where they presented their ideas and demands to the President in person. That’s what they were after, and that’s what they got. From that perspective, The March on Washington was a success. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/37 "2003-11-24T21:19:28Z")
I think we are getting a little sidetracked and only looking for protests that have “changed the world”. Which is not really the point of protest in a democracy. Do you really think those of us on the protest expected Blair to resign later that afternoon? Or Bush to announce a complete about turn in policy? That is not realistic, and it is not what the point of the protest was. Most protests do not have massive, earth-shaking effects, but they have effects none the less. Some (Brit-centric) examples. I would argue that the Countrywide Alliance protests have had some effect -without them the government would have forced a full hunting ban through Parliament a long while ago. The fuel blockades may have had some effect - government is now a lot more wary about raising taxes on petrol. Now, neither of these lobbies have achieved all of their aims, but they have had an effect on decisions that are taken. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/38 "2003-11-24T21:26:26Z")
Let me see if I got this right, **New Isk**. The protesters were seeking to demonstrate that Bush and Blair were Stalinist-type monsters, eager to grind their political enemies under thier tank treads, and smear Trafalgar Square with bloody body parts. The fact that this did not occur means that they failed. Have I got that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/39 "2003-11-24T22:34:36Z")
Talking of protests… Georgians just got their leader to resign… so if you think protests can’t do anything… think again. As for the British… pity the numbers weren’t greater. Bush should have visited during the weekend… which was probably on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828/40 "2003-11-24T23:07:05Z")
Does anyone know what the goals of the protest organizers were? You can’t really judge the success of failure except wrt to those goals. Just guessing, I’d say the goals were: **1. Make sure Bush got some negative publicity during his visit.** I’d give this a “B”. There was definitiely negative publicity, but seems like it was somewhat temperred by the less than predicted turnout for the protests. **2. Put pressure on Blair to disengage from the US in Iraq.** I’d give this an “F”. No sign that Blair has changed his position of support. **3. Increase the probability that Blair gets booted in the next election.** I haven’t seen any polling numbers, but I guess we’ll see the results soon enough. Of course it’ll be hard (if not impossible) to determine how much of an effect this protest had if Blair does get booted. **4. Make the protesters feel good.** I’d have to give this an A. Looks like there was plenty of catharsis, and the crowds were big enough to generate that “I’m part of a big movement” feeling. I have to assume that the organizers did not expect to change Bush’s mind. Surely they’re smart enough to realize that was simply not going to happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-demonstrations-in-london-fail/214828.md?page=3)