# Did the "French Resistance" in WWII make a real difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2000, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842 "2000-06-09T04:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DRS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8e7dd6/32.png) [@DRS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/21 "2000-06-12T16:02:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > One should also note that the first enigme machine to be recovered was taken by the Polish resistance and spirited away to England. > > The rest of the Enigma story is about retrieving the daily set-up codes but without that first machine things could have been, at the very least, more protracted. > \*\* Sorry, but I score this as one for my point about not overestimating the contributions of the resistance. From Gerhard Weinberg’s _World at Arms_, p. 50: “In July of 1939 [that is, before the war begins] the Polish code-breaking experts with the approval of their government turned over to the French and British duplicates of Polish reproductions of the German enigma machine used for encoding radio messages.” ---
**Author:** ![Matt\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Matt\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Matt_M)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/22 "2015-04-19T17:35:50Z")
This is a great thread. I’ve done a lot of archival research on this topic. Part of this was a series of interviews with captured German officers done by the US Army in Europe right after the war. In many of the interviews, the Germans were asked directly if the French Resistance hindered their operations. Almost all of them said it wasn’t a factor. Of the many groups that made up the French Resistance, the French Communists were probably the most effective, and that part of the movement hasn’t been studied enough. A forgotten fact is that for the first year of the occupation, the French Communists viewed the Germans as liberators and tried to cooperate with them, because the PCF had been legally banned under the French Third Republic and the Germans lifted the ban because there was an alliance between Berlin and Moscow (until Germany launched Operation Barbarossa in 1941). The Resistance did give the French something to hold onto after the war to avoid a total loss of face, so you could say it was a moral victory of sorts. But if you compare the French Resistance to that of say, the Yugoslavs, there’s no comparison. As Rod Hill states, there was no one group called “The Resistance.” That’s not to denigrate any Frenchman who risked his life to fight the Nazis or save Allied aircrew. But overall the movement never gained the unity or traction needed to be effective. You can find my research here: > **[Military Resistance in France: 1940-1944](https://www.academia.edu/8455784/Military_Resistance_in_France_1940-1944)** > > The French Resistance to German occupation during World War Two lacks a comprehensive study that evaluates how effective it was. This paper evaluates the military effectiveness of the French Resistance as a guerrilla movement, tracing it's ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/23 "2015-04-19T17:55:17Z")
It is worth noting that the most effective of the French resistance groups were the communists under Lecompte - Boinet. While the Allies were happy to support them during the occupation, both Churchill and De Gaulle were pretty concerned about the rise of communism in France and determined that it should be stamped out. No doubt the Americans were even more worried. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/24 "2015-04-19T17:59:19Z")
> [@Matt\_M](#): > > You can find my research here: > > [(PDF) Military Resistance in France: 1940-1944 | Matthew McDole - Academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/8455784/Military_Resistance_in_France_1940-1944) This thread predates that paper by five years. ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/25 "2015-04-19T21:47:41Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > This thread predates that paper by five years. your point being … ??? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/26 "2015-04-19T22:15:38Z")
Listen very carefully, I will say this only once. Nice thread resurrection, very informative. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/27 "2015-04-19T23:42:45Z")
sometimes, the zombie threads are fun ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/28 "2015-04-20T16:40:18Z")
> [@Argeable](#): > > The resistance did provide priceless information to the allies, and were extremely sucessful saboteaurs (such as the syphoning, with only a straw and power of mouth, of a whole set of railroad engines, which caused a battalion of tigers to be 3 weeks late in Normandy.) Anyone got a clue what this means? > [@](#): > > However, their actual military contributions were not so succesful. In (I think) April of 1944 a resistance group in southern France seized an plateau and from there created an armed camp and started various light assault and harassment missions. They became confident, and then a company of SS troops came. They crushed the French with minimal losses. If I interpret them correctly both incidents are covered in Max Hastings’ excellent book: Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944: The most valuable contribution of the resistance movements was in intelligence gathering; for example locating V1 and V2 launch sites so they could be attended to from the air. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/29 "2015-04-20T16:43:49Z")
Tigers probably means tanks. Big cats were surprisingly ineffective against artillery. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/30 "2015-04-20T17:08:39Z")
Why exactly was the resistance effort in Yugoslavia and the USSR better than the French Resistance in military terms? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/31 "2015-04-20T17:13:53Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Tigers probably means tanks. Yes. Two models of German tank were referred to as Tigers (Tiger and Tiger II). There were also the Panther and Lion. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/32 "2015-04-20T17:42:58Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Tigers probably means tanks. > > Big cats were surprisingly ineffective against artillery. Of course it means tanks, though the alternative might make a good movie. What I would like explained is: “…such as the syphoning, with only a straw and power of mouth, of a whole set of railroad engines,” If this refers to the disastrous decision to drive Das Reich to Normandy rather than use tank transporters, I understood this was an apparently arbitrary decision by the German High command, not the result of locomotive shortages. For such an urgent mission I am sure locomotives could have been found if wanted. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/33 "2015-04-20T17:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Why exactly was the resistance effort in Yugoslavia and the USSR better than the French Resistance in military terms? Terrain and community structures - mountain redoubts in Yugoslavia, forests in Russia/Ukraine, and weaker governmental structures associated to the occupiers. There was certainly plenty of resistance activity in France. I came across the memoirs of Dany Cordier, who served as assistant to Jean Moulin, de Gaulle’s nominated representative in France, in his efforts to co-ordinate and unify the activities of different groups, and it was certainly clear that plenty of them were getting on with all sorts of sabotage or propaganda and intelligence-gathering. But it meant communicating very laboriously through manual messaging and shifting money and materials, mostly in or through urban centres, under the eyes of regular civilian police as well as LVF/Milice and informers. (Incidentally, Cordier’s own story is instructive - a teenage anti-republican, anti-semitic, proto-fascist extremist who expected Pétain’s arrival in office to mean reviving traditional France so as to “properly” carry on the war, was shattered to hear of the armistice, took off with some friends for England to join de Gaulle, and found himself over time shifting to the democratic left; his work allowed him to see at first hand the inter-group rivalries over access to money and materials from London and de Gaulle, and the battle for potential postwar status between the new young resisters and the old political party organisations). ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/34 "2015-04-20T20:19:30Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > If this refers to the disastrous decision to drive Das Reich to Normandy rather than use tank transporters, I understood this was an apparently arbitrary decision by the German High command, not the result of locomotive shortages. For such an urgent mission I am sure locomotives could have been found if wanted. The French rail system had essentially collapsed prior to the landings at Normandy in one of the few clear successes of strategic bombing. From [here](https://books.google.com/books?id=tdYkMPfUSUAC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&dq=combined+bomber+offensive+normandy+french+rail+system&source=bl&ots=SBHiW0fRJ0&sig=c7WWAXp0XZ9C-vZpEPxFA49Iv6c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4lk1VayhDIe0sASbyIH4Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=combined%20bomber%20offensive%20normandy%20french%20rail%20system&f=false): > [@](#): > > In mid-April, as Allied air attacks bit, French railroad traffic began a precipitous decline. Initially, the Germans cut civilian traffic to support military needs, but sustained air attacks soon affected military traffic as well. During May, fighter-bomber attacks on the Seine bridges and trains accelerated the decline. By late May, French railroad traffic was barely half of what it had been in January and thereafter declined to 10 percent. Attacks on the rail system in western France were particularly effective, and by mid-June it had ceased to operate. > A German report in early June noted: “In [France and Belgium], the systematic destruction… since March of all important junctions of the entire network - not only on the main rail lines - has most seriously crippled the whole transportation system (railway installations, including rolling stock). Similarly Paris has been cut off from long-distance traffic; and the most important bridges over the lower Seine have been destroyed one after the other… The rail network is to be completely wrecked… This aim has so successfully been achieved - locally at any rate - the Reichbahn [is]… considering whether it is not useless to attempt further repair work.” ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/35 "2015-04-20T21:56:50Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Why exactly was the resistance effort in Yugoslavia and the USSR better than the French Resistance in military terms? My own in-expert (but somewhat-informed) opinion is that the French were treated better by the Nazis and didn’t foment the hatred like they did in the USSR and Yugoslavia. If one lived in Vichy France then there wasn’t a lot of incentive to risk one’s life in the resistance (although plenty did). Much of this was based on racism; the Germans and the Slavs had little love for each other. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842/36 "2015-04-21T14:09:04Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The French rail system had essentially collapsed prior to the landings at Normandy in one of the few clear successes of strategic bombing. From [here](https://books.google.com/books?id=tdYkMPfUSUAC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&dq=combined+bomber+offensive+normandy+french+rail+system&source=bl&ots=SBHiW0fRJ0&sig=c7WWAXp0XZ9C-vZpEPxFA49Iv6c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4lk1VayhDIe0sASbyIH4Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=combined%20bomber%20offensive%20normandy%20french%20rail%20system&f=false): It was certainly in a bad way in the north of the country, but Das Reich was moving up from the south. To quote Max Hastings (p98) “Major Stickler at once signalled a routine request to the Corps for rail space for his tanks… To his utter astonishment it was peremptorily refused, without explanation.” Hastings implies that rail sabotage may have been partly behind the decision, but it is not very clear. Obviously Major Stickler wasn’t expecting this, and one imagines he ould have kept himself very well-informed about local railway sabotage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-french-resistance-in-wwii-make-a-real-difference/21842.md?page=1)