# Did the hobbits kill God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585 "2004-10-28T00:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/21 "2004-10-28T14:21:31Z")
The bible refers to both angels and giants why would yet another non-human people be shattering to those who believe? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/22 "2004-10-28T14:34:40Z")
Young-Earth Creationists, by my understanding, believe the earth was created by God some eight millennia ago. They’re therefore going to reject these fossils out of hand, based on their age: obviously they’re either a plant by God or by Satan, or else the scientists are just being shoddy again, mistaking a child’s skeleton for an adult’s or something. Jesus himself could come down from the heavens and say, “Look, thou idiots, thine earth is billions of years old!” and they’d close their eyes and call it a Darwinist plot. On the other hand, if the hobbits are killing God, it makes me wonder about that Ring the that Pope wears. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/23 "2004-10-28T15:17:28Z")
“What… does god need with a Ring of Power?” I doubt this will make any difference to evolution deniers. They probably think this is all a conspiracy anyway, so in that sense no evidence is indisputable. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/24 "2004-10-28T15:30:27Z")
I keep hearing about these Creationists who insist that fossils were planted by God or the Devil. I’ve read lots of Young-Earth Creation stuff over the years & I’ve only heard such a view from anti-Creationists. Name one Creationist who isn’t considered a loony by other Creationists who teaches this. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/25 "2004-10-28T15:41:34Z")
hobbits killed Jesus? Somebody better tell Mel Gibson. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/26 "2004-10-28T15:50:10Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Aw, c’mon John Mace. If Lucy is an acceptable nickname for a _Australopithicus afarensis_ speciman, why can’t hobbits be used as shorthand for _Homo floresiensis_? Or at least we can call the female remains Rosie Cotton. My point was that there is so much misinformation about human evolution out there that some people will probably believe these WERE hobbits. Anyway, the nickname will probably stick. Leaving aside the “local folklore”, it is interested to speculate how recently this species did survive. Assuming the date of 18k years ago holds, one has to assume that they survived much longer than that. Into historical times? Who knows. Dwarf mammoths survived on an arctic island until about 4k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/27 "2004-10-28T16:21:52Z")
Wow, it’s already in [Wikipedia!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/28 "2004-10-28T16:38:54Z")
> [@](#): > > “My jaw dropped to my knees,” says Peter Brown What species is _he_? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/29 "2004-10-28T17:28:06Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I keep hearing about these Creationists who insist that fossils were planted by God or the Devil. I’ve read lots of Young-Earth Creation stuff over the years & I’ve only heard such a view from anti-Creationists. > > Name one Creationist who isn’t considered a loony by other Creationists who teaches this. > **[Omphalos hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis)** > > The Omphalos hypothesis is one attempt to reconcile the scientific evidence that the universe is billions of years old with a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative, which implies that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It is based on the religious belief that the universe was created by a divine being, within the past six to ten thousand years (in keeping with flood geology), and that the presence of objective, verifiable evidence that the universe is older than app Th... ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/30 "2004-10-28T17:53:31Z")
How long will it be before someone claims this is [Orang Pendek](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang_Pendek)? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/31 "2004-10-28T19:07:54Z")
I find the fact that this jibes with local legends about “little people” to be especially intiguing. It may show that other similar legends may be rooted in ancient memories of other hominids. I’m disappointed with the name, though. _Homo Floresiensis_? Meh. This species is obviously _Homo hobbitus_. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/32 "2004-10-28T20:40:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Name one Creationist who isn’t considered a loony by other Creationists who teaches this. You might want to look into [Creation Science](http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/), [Dr. Dino](http://www.drdino.com/index.jsp#), the [Creation Explanation](http://www.parentcompany.com/creation_explanation/cx.htm) or [The Creation Science Association For Mid-America](http://www.csama.org/CSA-INFO.HTM). There are hundreds of more examples, but these are just a few to get you started. All of them propose non-evolutionary mechanisms to explain the fossil records, most of which boil down to, “God put them there.” ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/33 "2004-10-28T20:54:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m disappointed with the name, though. _Homo Floresiensis_? Meh. This species is obviously _Homo hobbitus_. I guess if you wanted to be really pedantic, you could argue they should be called _homo kudukus_, as “hobbit” is a “made up” word (of a “translation” into OE of made up word, which is a worn-down version of another made up word…) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/34 "2004-10-28T20:56:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m disappointed with the name, though. _Homo Floresiensis_? Meh. This species is obviously _Homo hobbitus_. Well, it’s common practice for the species name to come from a local geographic term, but if want to get fancy, _Homo frodoensis_ might be the way to go. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/35 "2004-10-28T21:41:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, it’s common practice for the species name to come from a local geographic term, but if want to get fancy, _Homo frodoensis_ might be the way to go. 🙂 Here comes the pedantry… The _-is_ ending in _Homo Floresiensis_ is a genetive indicating a “place from.” Since Flores is a place name, _Homo Floresiensis_ means “Man of Flores.” In the case of Frodo, you would need a nominative ending. This species is not _from_ Frodo, after all (especially since all indications are that Frodo ranked somewhere in the upper numbers of the Kinsey scale). In this case you want a simple nominative adjective to modify _homo_ rather than describe where it comes from (as in _homos sapiens_ for “wise man”). Since Frodo’s nominative Latin name is still Frodo (continuing after that to decline as _Frodonis, Frodene, Frodonem_…) the we are left with the simple, yet unfortunate construction of _Homo Frodo_. Frodo has to contend with enough rumors as it is. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/36 "2004-10-28T21:59:27Z")
Evolution beliving Christian here. I see no reason that _Homo floresiensis_ should be a threat to my faith. I’m going to keep an eye on Jack Chick’s site to see if he updates his tract _[Big Daddy](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp)_ to include this find. The bones must have shrunk from being so wet. 😃 For some reason this new species makes me think of Dr. Mephisto’s creature Kevin from South Park. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/37 "2004-10-29T00:03:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Here comes the pedantry… > > The _-is_ ending in _Homo Floresiensis_ is a genetive indicating a “place from.” Since Flores is a place name, _Homo Floresiensis_ means “Man of Flores.” > > In the case of Frodo, you would need a nominative ending. This species is not _from_ Frodo, after all (especially since all indications are that Frodo ranked somewhere in the upper numbers of the Kinsey scale). In this case you want a simple nominative adjective to modify _homo_ rather than describe where it comes from (as in _homos sapiens_ for “wise man”). Since Frodo’s nominative Latin name is still Frodo (continuing after that to decline as _Frodonis, Frodene, Frodonem_…) the we are left with the simple, yet unfortunate construction of _Homo Frodo_. Frodo has to contend with enough rumors as it is. 😉 Now, **Diogenes** , he and Sam were just good friends; I have that on the authority of some conservative Christian Tolkien fans, and surely you wouldn’t doubt **them**?! 😉 I’ll See Your Pedantry and Raise You 10 Dept.: If a personal name is used as the trivial name in binomial nomenclature, the custom is to Latinize it and then put it in the genitive – so it would be _Homo frodonis_ if you were to name it after Frodo. However, as you point out, it’s after the island Flores – and the ending is _-ensis_, not merely _-is_, with the approximate meaning of “native to, belonging to the fauna of” whatever the suffix is attached to. Before being reassigned, Heidelberg Man was _Homo heidelbergensis_, and Neanderthal is still either _Homo sapiens neanderthalensis_ or _Homo neanderthalensis_, according as how you consider it a subspecies or a full species (that’s still somewhat in dispute, although the full-species classification is more common). ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/38 "2004-10-29T00:17:58Z")
John Mace said: > [@](#): > > One other thing… let’s not propogate the “hobbit” silliness that the press is engaging in. Fuddy duddy. Spoilsport. Party pooper. Even the guys who actually _found_ them are [calling them hobbits:](http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1337198,00.html) > [@](#): > > “When we first unearthed the skeleton, I was simultaneously gobsmacked, puzzled and amused,” says geochronologist Bert Roberts of the University of Wollongong. > . > . > . > Could the ebu gogo still be alive? Roberts thinks it is possible. “The villagers said that the last hobbit was seen just before Dutch colonists settled that part of Flores in the 19th century,” he said, adding that searches of the remaining rainforest on Flores, and the caves specifically associated with the ebu gogo stories, could turn up samples of hair or other material, if not living, breathing specimens. > [@](#): > > Neanderthals coexisted with Modern Humans for about 10,000 years in Europe and even longer than that in the Levant. True but we don’t appear to have any stories or mythologies from the period when they co-existed with us. Thus it is easy for creationists to claim that the Neaderthals never really existed - because we have no evidence of them apart from the fossil record. With the hobbits, though, we have _both_ archeological evidence and corroborating stories. Thus we have greater evidence that the hobbits lived alongside the homo sapiens. Thus it is much harder for the young-earth creationists to claim that God put the bones there. With the Neanderthals, it’s easy for them to claim this since no one remembers them. With the hobbits though, there is a whole new layer of evidence - personal memory (or at least the group memory of the islanders). Padeye said: > [@](#): > > Evolution beliving Christian here. I see no reason that Homo floresiensis should be a threat to my faith. Do the hobbits have souls? Can they go to Heaven? Do you think they have any concept of God? If they haven’t, do you think they should be proselytised (assuming we find some)? What if a sexual union occurred between a human and a hobbit and a child-hobbit emerged, would that creature have a soul? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/39 "2004-10-29T00:29:15Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > Thus it is much harder for the young-earth creationists to claim that God put the bones there. Descending from the heavens, a great, bearded man, with a big glowing golden halo over his head, and a gigadecibel, voice booming across the land, could proclaim “Jesus was a Hobbit!” and the fundies would still argue with you. Time to let that evidence thing go, as far as the discussion at hand is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585/40 "2004-10-29T00:30:01Z")
After all these years of searching for a “Big” human like creature, and then this. Man I’m pissed! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-hobbits-kill-god/271585.md?page=3)