# Did the Jewish Exodus actually happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 24, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388 "2002-04-24T16:53:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wex10024](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8797f3/32.png) [@wex10024](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wex10024)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/21 "2002-04-28T13:40:27Z")
First thing Sunday morning we are to believe that WOMEN came from some guy’s rib - ok Virginia, Darwin was right, we are not far removed from monkeys. The weakest of us require repetitious confirmation that we are what the Bible told us - and will live forever. No citations - it’s the premise of the book. IF we just do what we are told, without diviation - later will be a hot party. I prefer Abraham Maslow who didn’t count ribs to discover human potential. My definition of the good life is how much mental neo-neural-plasticity we use daily - until we cash. I appreciate the Biblical writers for their metaphors, not their accuracy. The last time I checked it was WOMAN who produced progeny - with or without a rib. Tell me, what are you reading lately that has changed your thinking and feeling? Hal ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/22 "2002-04-28T18:56:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wex10024 \* > Ipuwer…wrote his stuff FOUR HUNDRED years after the alleged events occured… Cite? The date is a major factor in this discussion. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wex10024 \* > Cite: read his Papyrus under its title on the web. Pardon my ignorance, but I don’t know what “its title on the web” means. My browser works much better with URLs. Got one? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wex10024 \* > The guy I really admire is Immanuel Velikovsky…[who was admonished to start] predicting". Manny did - about Venus, Mars and Jupiter. > > It took a few years, but U.S. space probes confirmed his “historical reconstructions” of upheavals - cataclysms. I really hate to have this thread hijacked for a Velikovsky debate, which has been covered in SDMB before, but I just can’t resist. **wex10024** , V. has his fans, but he is hardly accepted by mainstream science. I refer you to these sites: [ul][li][Velikovsky](http://skepdic.com/velikov.html) in the Skepdic’s Dictionary[/li][li][Top Ten Reasons Why Velikovsky Is Wrong,](http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/vdtopten.html) by Leroy Ellenberger[/li][li][Velikovsky in Collision,](http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/gould_velikovsky.html) by Stephen Jay Gould[/li][li][What is the origin of Venus?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33897&highlight=velikovsky) (SDMB discussion)[/li][/ul] You probably won’t agree with these authors. If so, please start a thread of your own on the topic and we can continue there. **PBear,** your link to the original [Admonitions of Ipuwer](http://www.piney.com/BabEgIpuwer.html) text is interesting. It is full of “…” passages, though, and I wonder if these are due to missing fragments or deletions by the editor, who seems to have a religious ax to grind. ---
**Author:** ![PBear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@PBear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/23 "2002-04-28T19:45:15Z")
Hey Musicat. Good question. I assumed it represented difficulties of translation. An inference which is stated expressly in this [even better version](http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm), which for some reason I didn’t find in my search yesterday. But I don’t think it matters much how complete is the text; it’s the inclusion or exclusion of commentary that I find makes all the difference. For example, [here’s a version](http://www.ohr.org.il/special/pesach/ipuwer.htm), clearly assembled by a believer in the parallels, which to my eye is palpably forced. Speaking of true believers, I also tripped across [this discussion](http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html) of your original topic. Didn’t include it yesterday because I’m not prepared to vouch for it. With that caveat, I pass it along strictly “FWIW.” ---
**Author:** ![wex10024](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8797f3/32.png) [@wex10024](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wex10024)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/24 "2002-04-28T21:08:35Z")
4.29.02 Q. What if in fact we had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Ipuwer, the Eqyptian, was a personal witness to the Exodus, and documented it with his Canon Digital camera - that he personally counted the expatriates, and got an autographed 10 Commandments from Mo’, himself? Q. Would we have to believe the Bible version then? ``` Too silly? My response is that those who want verification about events circa 1250 B.C.A. - say 3200 years ago - need medical assistance. In 3,200 years from today, who will be able to prove, conclusively that the U.S. killed three-million Vietnamese in that war. Cite? U.S. Gov't figures. There is a serious difference between Quanitative and Qualitative analysis. Do you really want to weight, measure and package what happened during the Exodus? Here is a brief for Freedom, with a protagonist who had a little help from his celestial friends. The story lasts for 3200 years because it has ARC, it works, and touches our limbic system, not our neocortex. Abraham H. Maslow said this about "creativity" Cite: Maslow on Management "Creativity is correlated with the ability to withstand the LACK of structure, lack of future, the lack of predictability, of control, the tolerance for AMBIGUITY, for planlessness." Abe also said the Jews and Arabs have two things in common: they read "backwards", and they get "circumcized", the third is that they enjoy good tales around the desert fire about origins. Now, that's creativity when it lasts 3200 years. Hal There was no Mo' or Josh, VIRGINIA, then tell me how many hairs Santa has in his beard. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/25 "2002-04-29T13:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PBear \* > Speaking of true believers, I also tripped across [this discussion](http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html) of your original topic… And [another page](http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/exodus.html#Tenth) from the same site has an interesting discussion, with quotes from varied sources, about the Exodus event itself. However, the only ancient reference in that page is the Papyrus of Ipuwer. And the inclusion of quotes from Velikovsky and Sitchin that are given the same weight as other scholars shifts the page away from mainstream archeological thought, at least in my mind. The Papyrus seems to be a copy made in the Middle Kingdom of an Old Kingdom document. The Middle Kingdom date seems to be valid, although I still haven’t found formal evidence of its scientific dating. The amazing similarity between the events described in Exodus and the Papyrus gives one pause. The big Q before us is: Are we humans finding patterns and coincidences that were never intended? It’s a little like finding “predictions” in Nostradamas’ writings that “match” current events. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/26 "2002-04-29T13:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wex10024 \* > Q. What if in fact we had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Ipuwer, the Eqyptian, was a personal witness to the Exodus, and documented it with his Canon Digital camera - that he personally counted the expatriates, and got an autographed 10 Commandments from Mo’, himself? > > Q. Would we have to believe the Bible version then? No, but it might show evidence of time travel. 😉 But serially, such evidence would certainly _add_ to the believability of the Exodus story. But it might not be suffient to lay all speculations to rest. One very important scientific principle is _replication,_ which in an historical sense, might best be thought of as _corroboration._ The more _independent_ evidence of an event, the more likely it actually happened. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wex10024 \* > In 3,200 years from today, who will be able to prove, conclusively that the U.S. killed three-million Vietnamese in that war. Cite? U.S. Gov’t figures. If I may quote myself: “The more _independent_ evidence of an event, the more likely it actually happened.” There is a shitload of independent evidence of events that happened in the 19[sup]th[/sup] Century. While some of this documentation may not survive the next 3200 years, a lot of it will. Consider the millions of letters, books, govt records, TV, movie, video and audio records, photo snapshots, interviews, artifacts such as weapons, vehicles, military hardware, etc. and compare this to a maximum of TWO known pieces of evidence of the biblical Exodus, both of which are of suspicious origin. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/27 "2002-04-29T13:40:41Z")
Correction. While there IS a “shitload of evidence” from 19[sup]th[/sup] Century events too, I meant to say the 20[sup]th[/sup] Century in this case. Talk about living in the past. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/28 "2002-04-29T13:53:29Z")
**PBear,** in one of your links, the explanation for the elipses is: > [@](#): > > Lacunae in the papyrus text are marked by […]. _Lacunae_ is defined in my dictionary as: > [@](#): > > _Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary_ > A blank space or missing part It sounds like it was blank or missing in the original, but I guess it could mean a gap in a translation. Not definitive, eh? ---
**Author:** ![PBear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@PBear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/29 "2002-04-29T19:08:24Z")
Knew lacunae meant gaps, but thought it meant in this context gaps in our understanding of hieroglyphics. Suppose it’s more likely the author meant physical flaws in the papyrus. Learn something knew every day. Still don’t see the “amazing similarity.” To me, the papyrus relates a period of drought followed by insurrection, civil war and foreign raiding parties, in that order of importance. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/30 "2002-04-30T23:27:51Z")
_Originally posted by Bibliophage_ > [@](#): > > No we wouldn’t. We would have to accept that Adam had one less rib, not that all his male descendants did. Unless, that is, you can find evidence that the Bible mandates Lamarckian inheritance. If I understand this aright, Lamarck postulated that acquired characteristics are inheritable, a concept even Darwin rejected. Incidentally, isn’t it interesting that, within the last thirty years or so, “cloning” has grabbed headlines, while the notion of an Almighty God “creating” man or woman (cf. Jesus’ words in the 19th chapter of Matthew) are dismissed as ‘superstitious nonsense’? [sarcasm]Man can do this, God cannot.[/sarcasm] I agree with posters who are not so naive they would assume that, because Egyptian records don’t sem to support the historical status of the Exodus, it didn’t happen. What era has been free of nations that rewrite their historical records so it’s all positive? In the Old Testament is a record of a defeat of the Israelites by the armies of Egyptian Pharaoh Shishak (or Sheshonk); this Pharaoh proudly recorded the defeat on his temple wall at Karnak. I might be hard put to find a “secular” record–and most ancient historical accounts were recorded by priests and were thus far more religious than “secular”–that duly records the nation’s setbacks as consistently as the Bible did those of Israel, from Genesis to the end of 2 Chronicles–or records its nation’s setbacks _at all_. Incidentally, through most of Samuel and Kings–2 Kings ends at the same point as 2 Chronicles–“Israel” and “Judah” were two separate nations, and Assyria finally destroyed “Israel” long before the fall of Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/31 "2002-04-30T23:30:12Z")
All in all, I refer to resist the tone of the critics here; following a drawing by Al Jaffee in _Mad_ in the 60s, metaphorically, I sense that their figurative “inkwell” has a skull and crossbones, or the modern equivalent, on it. ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388/32 "2002-05-06T13:04:42Z")
Another archaeological find that should be considered is the [tablets of Tell El Amarna](http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T8649). The reference to the “Habiri” here (and elsewhere - try a search on “Habiri” or “Habiru”) has sometimes been taken to refer to the Hebrews. If the site is correct, this doesn’t seem terribly likely, and anyway, the Habiri are only located in Palestine, not in Egypt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-jewish-exodus-actually-happen/105388.md?page=1)