# Did The Nazi Flying Wing Ever Fly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205 "2010-11-02T14:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/1 "2010-11-02T14:26:28Z")
Near the end of WWII, the German aircraft designers (the brothers Horton) designed a jet engine powered flying wing fighter-bomber. In appearance, it looked a lot like the flying wing designed by Jack Northrop. Was a prototype ever built? And, did it actually fly? I would imagine that a flying windg used as a fighter plane would have a lot of handling problems-Northrop’s design was know for instability, especially in tight turns (a test pilot flying a prototype model was killed in a crash). Plus, the jet engines that the Germans developed were notorious for shot lives-the turbine blades would not last too long. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/2 "2010-11-02T15:27:31Z")
I doubt it did, flying wings are inherently unstable and need computers to make constant corrections, the germans would need to invent fly-by-wire… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/3 "2010-11-02T15:31:36Z")
Yup, it flew, but not always safely: [Horten Ho 229 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/4 "2010-11-02T15:32:14Z")
[The Horten Ho 229](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229) is what you’re thinking of - and yes, its prototype, the H.IX V2, did fly. The Allied advance overtook the program, though. > [@](#): > > The first flight of the H.IX V2 was made in Oranienburg on 2 February 1945. All subsequent test flights and development were done by Gothaer Waggonfabrik. By this time, the Horten brothers were working on the Amerika Bomber and did not attend the first test flight. The test pilot was Leutnant Erwin Ziller. Two further test flights were made between 2 and 18 February 1945. Another test pilot used in the evaluation was Heinz Scheidhauer. > > The H.IX V2 reportedly displayed very good handling qualities, with only moderate lateral instability (a typical deficiency of tailless aircraft). While the second flight was equally successful, the undercarriage was damaged by a heavy landing caused by Ziller deploying the brake parachute too early during his landing approach. There are reports that during one of these test flights, the H.IX V2 undertook a simulated “dog-fight” with a Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter and that the H.IX V2 outperformed the Me 262. > > Two weeks later, on 18 February 1945, disaster struck during the third test flight. Ziller took off without any problems to perform a series of flight tests. After about 45 minutes, at an altitude of some 800 m, one of the Jumo 004 turbojet engines developed a problem, caught fire and stopped. Ziller was seen to put the aircraft into a dive and pull up several times in an attempt to re-start the engine and save the precious prototype. Ziller undertook a series of four 360 degree turns with the wings banked 20 degrees. Ziller did not use his radio or eject from the aircraft. He may already have been unconscious as a result of the fumes from the burning engine. The aircraft crashed just outside the boundary of the airfield. Ziller was thrown from the aircraft on impact and died from his injuries two weeks later. The prototype aircraft was completely destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/5 "2010-11-02T15:37:45Z")
Tell that to the Horten brothers. They had been designing and flying their flying wing gliders for years. Prop driven versions wee also tested the [Horten IX](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229) had several test flights with Jumo jet engines. It was plenty stable enough for flight. It was not nimble, or a stable gun platform, but it was fast, had good high altitude characteristics and generally a pretty impressive aircraft. Edit: slow typing I guess. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/6 "2010-11-02T16:07:39Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I doubt it did, flying wings are inherently unstable and need computers to make constant corrections, the germans would need to invent fly-by-wire… [Here’s video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0gqSHva1IQ) of a restored Northrop N9M flying wing buzzing around an airshow. No computers involved. “Inherently unstable,” yes. “Unflyable,” no. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/7 "2010-11-03T05:20:28Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > [Here’s video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0gqSHva1IQ) of a restored Northrop N9M flying wing buzzing around an airshow. No computers involved. “Inherently unstable,” yes. “Unflyable,” no. Wow, thanks for fighting my ignorance. I think I might’ve conflated a flying wing that was found to be unflyable without computer assistance, and then read the explanation as ALL flying wings are unflyable without fly-by-wire. Sorry for that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/8 "2010-11-03T06:51:57Z")
Not only would it fly but [it would also elude radar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229#Northrop-built_reproduction). **Northrop-Grumman built a full-size reproduction of the V3, incorporating a replica glue mixture in the nose section. After an expenditure of about US$250,000 and 2,500 man-hours, Northrop’s Ho 229 reproduction was tested at the company’s classified radar cross-section (RCS) test range at Tejon, California, where it was placed on a 15-meter (50 ft) articulating pole and exposed to electromagnetic energy sources from various angles, using the same three frequencies used by the Chain Home[specify] radar network of the British in the early 1940s.[specify] RCS testing showed that a hypothetical Ho 229 approaching the English coast from France flying at 885 km/h (550 mph) at 15–30 metres (50–100 ft) above the water would have been visible at a distance of 80% that of a Bf 109. This implies an RCS of only 40% that of a Bf 109, from the front at the Chain Home frequencies. The most visible parts of the aircraft were the jet inlets and the cockpit, but caused no return through smaller dimensions than the CH wavelength.[2]** It could have been a game changer if they used it to bomb England. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/9 "2010-11-03T10:21:58Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Wow, thanks for fighting my ignorance. I think I might’ve conflated a flying wing that was found to be unflyable without computer assistance, and then read the explanation as ALL flying wings are unflyable without fly-by-wire. I think that’s true of the B2 bomber. It’s also true of all modern fighter aircraft. They are designed with unstable flight characteristics because it makes them more manouverable, and they rely on rapid computer adjustment of control surfaces to stay under control. > [@Magiver](#): > > Not only would it fly but [it would also elude radar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229#Northrop-built_reproduction). > > … > > It could have been a game changer if they used it to bomb England. Unlikely. The vast allied bombing campaign wasn’t particularly effective, German war production continued to increase until areas were actually occupied. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/10 "2010-11-03T13:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > There are reports that during one of these test flights, the H.IX V2 undertook a simulated “dog-fight” with a Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter and that the H.IX V2 outperformed the Me 262 The Me 262 was a boom-and-zoom fighter, not a turnfighter. IIRC the flight manual explicitly says that you shouldn’t do aerobatics in it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/11 "2010-11-03T13:56:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It could have been a game changer if they used it to bomb England. Not in the slightest. The Brits wouldn’t have even noticed it (pun intended.) The Germans could never had gotten it into production in 90 days, and even if they did, it had a crappy bomb load. By the time the prototype got off the ground, the war was all over but the shouting. ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/12 "2010-11-03T15:37:59Z")
The whole stealth issue is still pretty questionable, the Northrop tests did not take into account the front facing engine inlets with (turbine blades clearly visible). This would not be a good stealth feature -[“propellers and jet turbine blades produce a bright radar image”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology#Vehicle_shape) - Wikipedia. The composite construction was very typical of late war German projects, due to the great demand for strategic materials like aluminum. The actually operational jet fighter He-162 being an obvious example of this (and probably with an even smaller radar cross section due to its much, much smaller size and top mounted engine), nobody ever mentions it as stealth technology. Multiple early war aircraft were of composite wood construction, the British Mosquito and Russian Lagg-3/La-5 series being big examples. None of the variants were actual bombers. Two 500kg bombs were proposed, but this would be for a fighter bomber role, where radar would not be much of an issue. Germany already had an excellent tactical jet bomber in the Ar-234, and and painful experience of the total waste of forcing a jet interceptor into the role - the Me-262. This was basically a high altitude bomber interceptor. It was loaded with MK 108 cannon and rockets - for taking down B-29’s. Its performance was excellent at high altitude, and with proper tactics would have been untouchable for the purpose. Finally, with a range of 1930 km (unloaded) it would never make it back from a raid on England. This was not a bomber like the F-117. The Hortons did have a design for the [Amerika bomber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_H.XVIII) requirement. This concept still had a tactic of being faster than anything the allies had to make interception nearly impossible anyway. This particular tactic had already been demonstrated with the tremendous success of the Mosquito in the early part of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/13 "2010-11-03T16:31:00Z")
You meant B-17s and B-24s, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/14 "2010-11-03T17:10:18Z")
Yes I did mean B-17’s, and you are right B-24’s were still a significant threat. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/15 "2010-11-03T17:17:22Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Unlikely. The vast allied bombing campaign wasn’t particularly effective, German war production continued to increase until areas were actually occupied. That’s misleading. Production increased in all countries throughout the war. But it increased less in Germany, thanks to large numbers of factories and refineries being bombed. The bombing campaign against oil production was especially effective from 1944 onwards. The Germans on many occasions had to destroy their own tanks and vehicles to prevent them being captured, because they’d ran out of fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/16 "2010-11-03T17:30:40Z")
> [@ramel](#): > > That’s misleading. Production increased in all countries throughout the war. But it increased less in Germany, thanks to large numbers of factories and refineries being bombed. > > The bombing campaign against oil production was especially effective from 1944 onwards. The Germans on many occasions had to destroy their own tanks and vehicles to prevent them being captured, because they’d ran out of fuel. Yes, it was much more effective when they switched to bombing oil production facilities. I’m not saying the bombing was inefffective, just that it’s effect was limited. By 1944, Germany had already lost the key battles in the east and was in retreat. The point I was making, a small number of advanced German bombers wouldn’t have made a great deal of difference to the war, when the much larger allied bombing campaign couldn’t destroy German industry. Inaccurate bombing and dispersed production saw to that. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazi-flying-wing-ever-fly/559205/17 "2010-11-04T15:45:43Z")
Thanks for the info. The state of Nazi avaiation tells a lot about the messed-up Luftwaffe leadership. Had the germans used more sense, they might have had a relaible jet fighter in 1943-which would have devastated Allied bombers. Alas, by 1944, the German aircraft industry was in ruins. I belive that Goering bears much of the blame-if he had applied himself (instead of furnishing his castles with looted art), things might have ben different.