# Did the Nazis have the concept of a war crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779 "2013-12-07T23:26:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/1 "2013-12-07T23:26:23Z")
Or crime against humanity. I was wondering if there’d ever been an SS man whose actions had been so base that he’d got in trouble with the higher ups, but let’s throw it open to the entire Reich. Were any Germans punished by the Nazi regime for what we’d recognise as war crimes/crimes against humanity? The nearest I can recall is a memo sent out to the Waffen SS in 1945 reminding them that they were now fighting in Germany and not occupied land - presumably the looting and mistreatment of civilians that were the norm in France or Poland ruffled a few feathers. There was also a case of I think some Gestapo men who were punished for raping Jews in Poland - although they were punished as they had violated the race laws for an Aryan to have sexual relations with a Jew, not for the act of rape. The Wehrmacht largely abided to, or at least paid lip service to, the Geneva Convention on the Western Front and in its dealings with prisoners (although the hierarchy of treatment was American\>British\>French\>Pole\>Russian), so one assumes that the regime punished those who broke it to keep the others in line, although I can’t find much online. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/2 "2013-12-08T02:42:46Z")
I gather that actual sadism- getting off on torture and mutilation- was considered unseemly. The ideal was to do “what had to be done” as cold-blooded duty. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/3 "2013-12-08T02:44:47Z")
[Bronislav Kaminski](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronislav_Kaminski), commander of the [“Russian National Liberation Army” SS auxiliary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.S._Sturmbrigade_R.O.N.A.) (to simplify), was executed/fragged for his conduct in the field—admittedly, mostly because he was spending so much time raping and pillaging that it was making the unit combat ineffective. Apparently, the infamous [Oskar Dirlewanger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger) was subject to an arrest warrant at least once (by SS Judge [George Morgen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen), who investigated and prosecuted (!)various individual SS crimes), but not actually arrested. (He was, fortunately, captured after the war, and apparently tortured to death.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/4 "2013-12-08T04:09:13Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > [Bronislav Kaminski](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronislav_Kaminski), commander of the [“Russian National Liberation Army” SS auxiliary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.S._Sturmbrigade_R.O.N.A.) (to simplify), was executed/fragged for his conduct in the field—admittedly, mostly because he was spending so much time raping and pillaging that it was making the unit combat ineffective. > > Apparently, the infamous [Oskar Dirlewanger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger) was subject to an arrest warrant at least once (by SS Judge [George Morgen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen), who investigated and prosecuted (!)various individual SS crimes), but not actually arrested. (He was, fortunately, captured after the war, and apparently tortured to death.) Thanks for the links, Dirlewanger was one sick son of a bitch all right. When an SS-Obergruppenführer says about you “[Unless] this bunch of criminals disappears from the General Government within a week, I will go myself and lock them up” you know you’ve crossed a line…then crossed it again and again and again… ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/5 "2013-12-08T04:16:36Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Apparently, the infamous [Oskar Dirlewanger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger) was subject to an arrest warrant at least once (by SS Judge [George Morgen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen), who investigated and prosecuted (!)various individual SS crimes), but not actually arrested. (He was, fortunately, captured after the war, and apparently tortured to death.) Also investigated by Morgen, successfully, and executed in the last days of the war was [Karl-Otto Koch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch). Alas, his creepy wife lived on to give fuel to 70s exploitation films and urban legends about lampshades. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/6 "2013-12-08T06:05:29Z")
The Germans of that time would and did punish people for criminal conduct. Even as the links show in concentration camps. Basically, if you mistreated a concentration camp prisoner without lawful excuse you would be in a whole lot or trouble. OTH, said “lawful excuse” was usually that “these are sub human rats” or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/7 "2013-12-08T17:38:51Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > (He was, fortunately, captured after the war, and apparently tortured to death.) My, that was fortunate!😃 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/8 "2013-12-08T17:52:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Germans of that time would and did punish people for criminal conduct. Even as the links show in concentration camps. Basically, if you mistreated a concentration camp prisoner without lawful excuse you would be in a whole lot or trouble. OTH, said “lawful excuse” was usually that “these are sub human rats” or something similar. Stealing from Jews and keeping the loot for oneself instead of turning it over to the Reich was another biggie. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/9 "2013-12-08T19:27:51Z")
But they thought they were going to win…winners don’t do “war crimes”. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/10 "2013-12-08T20:30:08Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Or crime against humanity. No such animal legally existed prior to Nuremberg, which is one of the criticisms of the Nuremburg Trials; many of the defendants were being charged with crimes _ex post facto_. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Wehrmacht largely abided to, or at least paid lip service to, the Geneva Convention on the Western Front and in its dealings with prisoners (although the hierarchy of treatment was American\>British\>French\>Pole\>Russian), so one assumes that the regime punished those who broke it to keep the others in line, although I can’t find much online. The [Commissar Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar_Order) was clearly illegal, and Hitler had to possess a concept of a war crime in order to absolve those committing them. From a speech to his generals before Barbarossa, as recorded in the [Halder Diary](http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-commissar.htm): > [@](#): > > The war against Russia cannot be fought in knightly fashion. The struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be waged with unprecedented, unmerciful, and unrelenting hardness. All officers will have to get rid of any old fashioned ideas they may have. I realize that the necessity for conducting such warfare is beyond the comprehension of you generals, but I must insist that my orders be followed without complaint. The commissars hold views directly opposite to those of National Socialism. Hence these commissars must be eliminated. Any German soldier who breaks international law will be pardoned. Russia did not take part in the Hague Convention and, therefore, has no rights under it. To note, the notion that Russia did not take part in the Hague Convention is horseshit, the Hague Convention of 1899 was proposed by Tsar Nicholas II. Russia was a signatory to both Hague Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/11 "2013-12-08T21:43:55Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > To note, the notion that Russia did not take part in the Hague Convention is horseshit, the Hague Convention of 1899 was proposed by Tsar Nicholas II. Russia was a signatory to both Hague Conventions. Did the Soviets consider themselves bound by those signatures though? This wikipedia article says they did not. > **[Soviet war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes)** > > From 1917 to 1991, a multitude of war crimes and crimes against humanity were carried out by the Soviet Union or any of its Soviet republics, including the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and its armed forces. They include acts which were committed by the Red Army (later called the Soviet Army) as well as acts which were committed by the country's secret police, NKVD, including its Internal Troops. In many cases, these acts were committed upon the direct orders of Soviet leaders V... ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/12 "2013-12-08T22:36:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > No such animal legally existed prior to Nuremberg, which is one of the criticisms of the Nuremburg Trials; many of the defendants were being charged with crimes _ex post facto_. Just added that for clarity’s sake, what we’d call crimes against humanity today - granted back then nobody, least of all Nazi Germany, would have called it such. Probably more ‘unseemly behaviour’ or something, the Nazis loved euphemisms. > [@](#): > > The [Commissar Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar_Order) was clearly illegal, and Hitler had to possess a concept of a war crime in order to absolve those committing them. From a speech to his generals before Barbarossa, as recorded in the [Halder Diary](http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-commissar.htm):To note, the notion that Russia did not take part in the Hague Convention is horseshit, the Hague Convention of 1899 was proposed by Tsar Nicholas II. Russia was a signatory to both Hague Conventions. Neither side in what the Russians call the Great Patriotic War had much pretensions to vestments of civilisation on the battlefield, they were engaged in a life or death struggle on the behalf of two of history’s greatest monsters. As such I doubt many Germans were disciplined by their side for any horror on the Eastern Front. The [Commando Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando_Order#War_crime), also illegal, seems to have also raised a few scruples from Germans; "The order included measures designed to force military staff to obey despite their lack of enthusiasm.[1] Some commanders like Rommel had refused to relay this order to their troops, considering it to be contrary to honourable conduct.[26]" Interesting link on Hitler’s speech, wonder if there were equivalent or contrasting thoughts towards the British and Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/13 "2013-12-09T16:13:40Z")
As far as I know, German soldiers were tried and convicted for crimes they committed against civilians in occupied countries. I remember reading about cases of German soldiers who were sentenced to death by (German) courts-martial and executed for the rape and murder of Russian girls. Throughout WW II, diplomatic channels between Germany and the Western Allies were maintained and official protests against alleged war crimes were filed by both sides. There was a working group in the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (OKW) which was tasked with investigating and documenting these incidents (i. e. crimes committed by German service members as well as crimes committed against German soldiers). American historian Alfred de Zayas wrote a book about this topic: [The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945](http://www.amazon.com/The-Wehrmacht-Crimes-Bureau-1939-1945/dp/0803299087/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1386605384&sr=8-3-spell&keywords=aldred+de+zayas) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/14 "2013-12-09T16:54:40Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > As far as I know, German soldiers were tried and convicted for crimes they committed against civilians in occupied countries. I remember reading about cases of German soldiers who were sentenced to death by (German) courts-martial and executed for the rape and murder of Russian girls. You are sorely misinformed on this. I’m in a rush at the moment, but quickly, the [Barbarossa Decree](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht#Barbarossa_Decree): > [@](#): > > The background behind the Barbarossa Decree was laid out by Hitler during a high level meeting with military officials on March 30, 1941,[33] where he declared that war against Soviet Russia would be a war of extermination, in which both the political and intellectual elites of Russia would be eradicated by German forces, in order to ensure a long-lasting German victory.[33] Hitler underlined that executions would not be a matter for military courts, but for the organised action of the military.[33] The decree, issued by FeldMarshal Keitel a few weeks before Operation Barbarossa, exempted punishable offenses committed by enemy civilians (in Russia) from the jurisdiction of military justice. Suspects were to be brought before an officer who would decide if they were to be shot. Prosecution of offenses against civilians by members of the Wehrmacht was decreed to be “not required” unless necessary for the maintenance of discipline. > > The order specified: > [ul] > [li]“The partisans are to be ruthlessly eliminated in battle or during attempts to escape,” and all attacks by the civilian population against Wehrmacht soldiers are to be “suppressed by the army on the spot by using extreme measures, till [the] annihilation of the attackers;[/li][li] Every officer in the German occupation in the East of the future will be entitled to perform execution(s) without trial, without any formalities, on any person suspected of having a hostile attitude towards the Germans”, (the same applied to prisoners of war);[/li][li] “If you have not managed to identify and punish the perpetrators of anti-German acts, you are allowed to apply the principle of collective responsibility. ‘Collective measures’ against residents of the area where the attack occurred can then be applied after approval by the battalion commander or higher level of command”;[/li][li] German soldiers who commit crimes against humanity, the USSR and prisoners of war are to be exempted from criminal responsibility, even if they commit acts punishable according to German law.[/li][/ul] That’s without even touching on the activities of the einsatzgruppen, the murder of Soviet POWs, and anti-partisan actions. Examples of crimes committed against civilians outside the Eastern Front are easily come by as well, see [Ascq massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascq_massacre). ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/15 "2013-12-09T17:18:42Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You are sorely misinformed on this. I think there is a misunderstanding here: It is absolutely clear and there is no doubt whatsoever that the Germans committed an incredible large number of horrible and unspeakable war crimes during WW II, especially in Eastern Europe. I was, however, specifically addressing the OP’s question (and I’m paraphrasing here) if there was - on occasion and to some degree - an awareness of what constituted a war crime. And that was indeed the case. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/16 "2013-12-09T17:35:19Z")
**Dissonance** , the point is that the members of the German Armed forces were permitted undertake brutality only if such action was properly authorised. Raping and killing a group of whatever undesirables could and would land you into a whole host of trouble…unless you and your unit/formation had been expressly told to carry out those actions. IIRC this came up at Nuremberg. ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/17 "2013-12-09T18:45:55Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Apparently, the infamous [Oskar Dirlewanger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger) was subject to an arrest warrant at least once (by SS Judge [George Morgen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen), who investigated and prosecuted (!)various individual SS crimes), but not actually arrested. (He was, fortunately, captured after the war, and apparently tortured to death.) Most of the time when you look at a picture of a “monster” you just see a normal looking person, just anyone you’d see walking down the street. Dirlewanger however looks the part. The man is just creepy looking. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/18 "2013-12-09T20:00:45Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I think there is a misunderstanding here: I apologize for misreading you in my haste. > [@AK84](#): > > **Dissonance** , the point is that the members of the German Armed forces were permitted undertake brutality only if such action was properly authorised. Raping and killing a group of whatever undesirables could and would land you into a whole host of trouble…unless you and your unit/formation had been expressly told to carry out those actions. That was the point of Hitler pre-pardoning any war crimes committed by German soldiers and of the Barbarossa Decree; killing whatever group of undesirables was expressly authorized and wouldn’t land you in any trouble “unless necessary for the maintenance of discipline”. German officers were authorized to summarily execute anyone _on suspicion_ of having a hostile attitude towards the Germans, and collective punishment, i.e. massacring the nearest group of civilians only required the authority of a battalion commander or higher. Undesirables is an important word here; as Hitler said this was a racial and ideological war. Slavs were considered subhuman by Nazi ideology and communism to be Judeo-Bolshevism, a Jewish plot. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/19 "2013-12-09T21:29:31Z")
From what I read, most of the regular army soldiers were fairly good at following the Geneva Accords. the worst were the Waffen SS troops-the SS “Totenkopf” was one of the worst. SS soldiers murdered civilians and American, British, and Polis POWs…as well as Russians. In Russia, their reputation was so bad that Russian cavalrymen regularly chopped off SS troops hands, when they surrendered. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779/20 "2013-12-09T22:09:51Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > From what I read, most of the regular army soldiers were fairly good at following the Geneva Accords. the worst were the Waffen SS troops-the SS “Totenkopf” was one of the worst. SS soldiers murdered civilians and American, British, and Polis POWs…as well as Russians. In Russia, their reputation was so bad that Russian cavalrymen regularly chopped off SS troops hands, when they surrendered. The ones with chopped off hands were lucky; even the British and Americans used to summarily execute SS men whenever they were taken prisoner (the Canadians took few prisoners from the [12th SS Panzer division](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend#War_crimes), for instance). This was much to the chagrin of Wehrmacht panzer divisions, as tankers also wore black uniforms and were often confused with the SS. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-have-the-concept-of-a-war-crime/675779.md?page=2)