# Did the Nazis literally "march Jews into ovens"??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2015, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756 "2015-07-21T06:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/41 "2015-07-24T14:29:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Their fashion sense was also impeccable. Military chic at its best. I mean, of course you have to be evil to wear white- and red-accented black uniforms adorned with various skulls but it’s a small price to pay. > > 🙂 Hugo Boss designed and manufactured, if I remember right. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/42 "2015-07-24T16:14:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Hugo Boss designed and manufactured, if I remember right. Long threads on this in SD. Also, re above, concentration camps, whose ultimate goal, was death, and sometimes–like Auschwitz and Dachau at first–concurrent goal, was immediate killing. Later, Auschwitz was merged with the camp Birkenau, and it, Bełżec, Sobibór, and Treblinka existed solely as industrial processing centers. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/43 "2015-07-24T18:56:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The people murdered in the Holocaust were murdered in almost every conceivable fashion, actually. A great many never even made it to the camps; they were shot by SS killing units that roamed behind the front, rounding up and slaughtering Jews, Roma, communists and the like. This was the preferred method in the Soviet Union at first. As the war wore on, more SS were needed to actually fight people who could fight back, hence the greater emphasis on murdering them in a more organized fashion. Manpower efficiency wasn’t the reason for the shift from open air shootings and mobile gas vans to death camps; the number of personnel in the Einsatzgruppen was shockingly small for having carried out the murder of over 2 million human beings by these methods. There were only [3,000 members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#Organisation_starting_in_1941)in the 4 Einsatzgruppen organized for Barbarossa. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > This whole thread seems a bit silly to me. The phrase \*‘marching them into the ovens’ \*is obviously not meant to be taken literally. The Nazis never had a system in place to do this, nor would it really be possible. People would turn and run and face any other death (machine guns etc.) rather than be burned alive en masse. > > There are many documented cases of the Nazis locking hundreds of victims in barns etc. and then setting the building on fire. Those that tried to escape were shot, but the vast majority would have died inside. I can’t remember the exact link but I’ve also read of death camps outside of Germany run by German allies where the even more brutish guards would occasionally throw people into crematoriums alive. These are all exceptions not the rule… See above, the Nazis did indeed kill 2 million people in mass open air shootings, 33,771 Jews were shot at [Babi Yar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar) on Sep 29-30, 1941 for example. You are probably thinking of the [Oradour-sur-Glane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane) massacre with locking women and children in barns (the church, actually) and setting it on fire. That wasn’t actually part of the Holocaust; it was a massacre of civilians carried out by the 2nd SS “Das Reich” Panzer Division in retaliation for partisan activity it encountered during its march to Normandy. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because all these people were killed so quickly, they never entered the camp system. The Germans never had to transport them or provide any supplies to them. And German military units were ordered to stay away when the Einsatzgruppen were “working”. So the killings they carried out left a minimal paper trail. But it’s estimated that the Einsatzgruppen killed one to two million people. It actually left a huge paper trail as the Nazis were quite meticulous in their record keeping; they were also smart enough to destroy most of it, but what survives is quite detailed and very damning, for example the [Jäger Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_Report): > [@](#): > > The Jäger Report was written on 1 December 1941 by Karl Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando 3, a killing unit of Einsatzgruppen A which was attached to Army Group North during Operation Barbarossa. It is the most precise surviving chronicle of the activities of one individual Einsatzkommando. > > The Jäger Report is a tally sheet of actions by Einsatzkommando 3, including the Rollkommando Hamann killing squad. The report keeps an almost daily running total of the liquidations of 137,346 people, the vast majority Jews, from 2 July 1941 to 25 November 1941. The report documents exact date and place of the massacres, number of victims and their breakdown into categories (Jews, communists, criminals, etc.). In total, there were over 100 executions in 71 different locations listed there.[1] On 1 February 1942, Jäger updated the totals to 136,421 Jews (46,403 men, 55,556 women and 34,464 children), 1,064 Communists, 653 mentally disabled, and 134 others in a handwritten note for Franz Walter Stahlecker.[1] The Wehrmacht wasn’t told to keep away from the Einsatzgruppen while they were “working”, though their direct involvement is something that a lot of its surviving officers preferred not to acknowledge. The Wehrmacht was well aware of, and [worked quite close with the Einsatzgruppen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#Involvement_of_the_Wehrmacht): > [@](#): > > The killings took place with the knowledge and support of the German Army in the east.[129] On 10 October 1941 Field Marshal Walther von Reichenau drafted an order to be read to the German Sixth Army on the Eastern Front. Now known as the Severity Order, it read in part: > > The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the Asiatic influence in European civilization … In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception … For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry.[130] > > Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt of Army Group South expressed his “complete agreement” with the order. He sent out a circular to the generals under his command urging them to release their own versions and to impress upon their troops the need to exterminate the Jews.[131] General Erich von Manstein, in an order to his troops on 20 November, stated that “the Jewish-Bolshevist system must be exterminated once and for all.”[129] Manstein sent a letter to Einsatzgruppe D commanding officer Ohlendorf complaining that it was unfair that the SS was keeping all of the murdered Jews’ wristwatches for themselves instead of sharing with the army.[132] > > Beyond this trivial complaint, the Army and the Einsatzgruppen worked closely and effectively. On 6 July 1941 Einsatzkommando 4b of Einsatzgruppe C reported that “Armed forces surprisingly welcome hostility against the Jews”.[133] On 8 September, Einsatzgruppe D reported that relations with the German Army were “excellent”.[133] In the same month, Stahlecker of Einsatzgruppe A wrote that Army Group North had been exemplary in co-operating with the exterminations and that relations with the 4th Panzer Army, commanded by General Erich Hoepner, were “very close, almost cordial”.[134] In the south, the Romanian Army worked closely with Einsatzgruppe D to massacre Ukrainian Jews,[95] killing around 26,000 Jews in the Odessa massacre.[135] The German historian Peter Longerich thinks it probable that the Wehrmacht, along with the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), incited the Lviv pogroms, during which 8,500 to 9,000 Jews were killed by the native population and Einsatzgruppe C in July 1941.[136] ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/44 "2015-07-26T20:50:39Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Long threads on this in SD. > Also, re above, concentration camps, whose ultimate goal, was death, and sometimes–like Auschwitz and Dachau at first–concurrent goal, was immediate killing. Later, Auschwitz was merged with the camp Birkenau, and it, Bełżec, Sobibór, and Treblinka existed solely as industrial processing centers. Based on what I’ve read, and what I remember from the Imperial War Museum’s holocaust exhibition, what they did at Auschwitz-Birkenau and other camps is basically sort the incoming prisoners into the ones that weren’t useful for work (old, children, infirm, weak), and gas them right away, and the others would basically be worked to death. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/45 "2015-07-26T23:29:06Z")
Huh. Just saw that Mike Huckabee has said that Obama has marched Israel “to the door of the oven.” That’s not gonna help fight ignorance, is it? ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/46 "2015-07-28T07:43:09Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Huh. Just saw that Mike Huckabee has said that Obama has marched Israel “to the door of the oven.” That’s not gonna help fight ignorance, is it? Heres the link to Huckabees comment: > **[Huckabee Defends "Oven" Remark: "You're An Idiot" If You Don't Believe Iran...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/huckabee-defends-oven-remark-youre-an-idiot-if-you-dont-beli)** > > "...we're not talking about some wild-eyed blogger, we're talking about the official Iranian government, promising, not just threatening, promising that they will kill Jews." The only reason I bring this up is that I have been accused SOMETHING I WILL NOT REPEAT DUE TO SDMB MODERATOR RULES, and to satisfy some of the more younger, uninformed posters proof of this statement being truly used, above is the latest example. The Holocaust did happen; 6 million Jews, if not more, and many more others, of targeted ethic racial or other groups, were killed systematically by the Nazis. Im just trying to get to the root of the “ovens” comments and how that may or may of not played a part in the actual extermination process. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/47 "2015-07-28T08:37:11Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Huh. Just saw that Mike Huckabee has said that Obama has marched Israel “to the door of the oven.” That’s not gonna help fight ignorance, is it? I’ll be damned. I just now saw this thread in the “New Posts,” and I assumed that the OP was prompted by Huckabee’s idiotic remarks. I’m amazed to see that it was actually posted a few days before them. Talk about topical! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/48 "2015-07-28T20:25:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Their fashion sense was also impeccable. Military chic at its best. I mean, of course you have to be evil to wear white- and red-accented black uniforms adorned with various skulls but it’s a small price to pay… Obligatory Mitchell & Webb link: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle\_DLDg9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/49 "2015-07-29T01:18:37Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I’ll be damned. I just now saw this thread in the “New Posts,” and I assumed that the OP was prompted by Huckabee’s idiotic remarks. I’m amazed to see that it was actually posted a few days before them. Talk about topical! SerenDipity.[sup]TM[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756/50 "2015-07-31T13:32:38Z")
Reading _Ardennes 1944: Hitler’s Last Gamble_ by Antony Beevor, came across a passage that shows that Germans at the time used this wording (or a variation thereof), p.45; > [@](#): > > Coffee, because of its rarity, was the conspicuous consumption of choice for the Nazi hierarchy. A horrifying and bizarre conversation between two captured Kreigsmarine admirals was secretly recorded in their camp in England in 1945. Konteradmiral Engel told Vizeadmiral Utke about fellow admirals entertained by Arthur Greiser… > ‘Greiser boasted: “Do you know that the coffee you’re drinking now, cost me 32,000 Jewish women?”’ > ‘Where did they go?’ Vizeadmiral Utke asked. > ‘“Into the incinerators probably,” Greiser said to us at the time. “Let’s hope we all get as easy a death as they had.”…All the admirals sat around laughing themselves sick…’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-nazis-literally-march-jews-into-ovens/725756.md?page=2)