# Did the news include a weather forecast before satellites? If so, how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556 "2017-04-02T02:38:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/21 "2017-04-02T15:25:46Z")
Someone mentioned secret German weather stations in Greenland, and on that note, the US Air Force has the Special Operations Weather Technician, which is exactly what it sounds like, an AFSOC type who infiltrates into some place he’s probably not supposed to be to gather weather data and other information to send back to base. Owing perhaps to our similarities to the maritime trades, weather is very important to aviators, especially aviators who need to know how the weather will affect things like visibility over the target. Doubly so when you consider that clouds can either conceal the target or the attacker. A pilot might have need for a good cloudbank to zip into after pissing off every local with a high-powered gun. Nowadays, in addition to satellite, you get lots of weather information gathered from stations operated by folks like airport staff and amateur radio operators. All of these bits of data are collected and channeled up to the National Weather Service, who plugs all of that information into their computers and run their calculations and such on them. Or, if you’re in Wyoming, you hang a rock from a chain and judge the weather by the angle of the chain and whether or not the rock is covered in snow. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/22 "2017-04-02T15:32:55Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Or, if you’re in Wyoming, you hang a rock from a chain and judge the weather by the angle of the chain and whether or not the rock is covered in snow. Somewhere, I have a pilot’s weather briefing card. It’s a business card made of light blue stock, and there’s a hole in it. Hold the card up to the sky, and look through the hole. If what you see through the hole matches the colour of the card, it’s a good day to fly. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/23 "2017-04-02T15:40:50Z")
Weather reporting was important in every theater. The US even set up a clandestine weather station in the Gobi Desert to provide weather reports to aid the B-29 attacks on Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/24 "2017-04-02T16:31:13Z")
Weather forecasting for areas in the US generally depended on weather stations west of their locations. This was (and still is to some extent) a problem for Washington State, Oregon and California. Forecasters in Idaho just had to look at the weather radar located in Washington State to see what was coming in their direction. The same was true for weatherman in Nevada and Arizona. They just had to look at what was happening in California. For the rest of the country (east of the west coast), weather forecasting was a breeze and much more accurate compared to the predictions for Washington, Oregon and California. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/25 "2017-04-02T16:50:17Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Hey, I remember that too, though I was nowhere near Des Moines – must have been pretty common practice! Although I have a vague recollection of an even more primitive TV weather guy with a blackboard map, writing things in chalk, believe it or not – not sure if I ever actually saw this or just heard about it. It was once explained that the backwards-writing guys were able to see themselves in a mirror and with a bit of practice that made it a lot easier. Never quite understood why they couldn’t just flip the image electronically, but I guess those were Olde Tymes technologically. Wrinting backwards on plexiglass (or anything for that matter) is dead easy. It used to be standard practice for drawing airplane tracks on large maps in radar units. I know, because I did it. It only took a little practice to get it right. And a mirror is totally unnecessary; it would probably make things worse, in fact. I remember both chalkboard and reverse writing weathermen. Yes, the reverse writing looks difficult to those who haven’t tried, but really, it’s a piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/26 "2017-04-02T16:56:16Z")
[L.A. weather report from 1980](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9YY8slevwg), with the late, great, ‘Dr. George’ Fischbeck (and the late Jerry ‘From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California, a good evening’ Dunphy). ---
**Author:** ![toast\_pakora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@toast\_pakora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toast_pakora)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/27 "2017-04-02T17:51:11Z")
_Weather forecasting for areas in the US generally depended on weather stations west of their locations_. The forecast for Oahu was pretty standard: Highs in the high 80s, lows in the low 80s. Windward and mauka showers. Unless there was a hurricane coming up from Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/28 "2017-04-02T19:04:01Z")
In the UK, the BBC used to give brief general forecasts on the radio from fairly early on. TV presentations reflected the military/scientific origins of the process: [1953](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiWMP4qBfA4) But then they developed [more simplified graphics over the years](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crijZZJLwTk) On the radio, they still continue to broadcast plai data for mariners from various stations, several times a day, in the [shipping forecast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQ2Lk20n3U), which quite a lot of people listen to as a sort of secular litany: very comforting as you drift off to sleep to know that all those gales and heavy seas are someone else’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/29 "2017-04-02T19:22:00Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > I think one thing that is being missed is that weather forecasting is based upon an understanding of the physics of weather, and this has been understood in some form for a very long time. Even without the underlying physics, it’s possible to predict weather based on empirical observations and experience, combined with a [weather map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_map). Mainly based on the fact that weather moves in the direction the wind is blowing. And a map of air pressures tells you where the weather fronts are. And you don’t need satellite data to generate a weather map. Just barometer and wind measurements from multiple ground stations. I don’t know about the US, in Japan they still broadcast weather data on the radio - current weather condition, pressure, wind speed and wind direction at 54 locations in and around Japan. You can buy blank maps on which to write down this information and draw your own weather map, and use it to forecast the weather yourself. This is taught in schools (at least I learned it in high school in the 1980s), and used to be a standard skill for mountain climbers. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/30 "2017-04-02T19:26:33Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Forecasts were also a lot less accurate. Even in the 80s and 90s, I assumed that tomorrow’s forecast was pretty good, the 3 day forecast had a decent chance, and anything beyond that was an educated guess. I distinctly remember well into the 90s every sitcom had at least one episode where the main character becomes irrationally​ angry at the local weatherman for blowing a forecast (always predicting a sunny day that becomes a giant thunderstorm and ruins the person’s plans) and as a result either harrases them or beats them up in their imagination. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/31 "2017-04-02T19:39:21Z")
It was less than ten years ago that I awoke and read the 3am forecast that said “wet, cold and windy” … as I’m watching the sunrise it dawned on me that the day would be “dry, warm and sunny” … turns out the predicted 100% relative humidity was actually 99% … that seems a teeny tiny difference but it’s a difference that matters a whole lot … So pity to typical forecaster … there’s a particularly nasty non-linearity in the thermodynamics at change-of-state conditions … ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/32 "2017-04-02T19:47:00Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Forecasts were also a lot less accurate. Even in the 80s and 90s, I assumed that tomorrow’s forecast was pretty good, the 3 day forecast had a decent chance, and anything beyond that was an educated guess. As I remember reports, up until the late fifties persistence was better than the (US) weather report. That is, you were more likely to be correct if you assumed tomorrow would be just like today than if you tried to predict the weather. Two and three day forecast were different of course. And different countries/regions had different outcomes. During the monsoons it is pretty easy to predict the weather in parts of India for instance. Same for the Sahara. Figuring out the weather in mountainous terrain is still very tough. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/33 "2017-04-02T20:51:46Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > For the rest of the country (east of the west coast), weather forecasting was a breeze and much more accurate compared to the predictions for Washington, Oregon and California. I can do a damn accurate weather prediction for Washington State for October-March: Mid 40s, overcast and scattered showers. Or in the days before satellites when they used large squirrels to predict the weather it was more like this: “I’ll give you a winter prediction: It’s gonna be cold, it’s gonna be grey, and it’s gonna last you for the rest of your life.” ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/34 "2017-04-02T21:11:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I can do a damn accurate weather prediction for Washington State for October-March: Mid 40s, overcast and scattered showers. > > Or in the days before satellites when they used large squirrels to predict the weather it was more like this: “I’ll give you a winter prediction: It’s gonna be cold, it’s gonna be grey, and it’s gonna last you for the rest of your life.” Yes … when it rains every day all day long … you can forecast with a damn abacus … Extra Credit Question … what’s the weather on July 17th, any given year? SUNNY with widely scattered forest fires !!! ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/35 "2017-04-02T21:17:15Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I don’t know about the US, in Japan they still broadcast weather data on the radio - current weather condition, pressure, wind speed and wind direction at 54 locations in and around Japan. You can buy blank maps on which to write down this information and draw your own weather map, and use it to forecast the weather yourself. This is taught in schools (at least I learned it in high school in the 1980s), and used to be a standard skill for mountain climbers. They have automated National Weather Service stations that transmit on one of a short list of set VHF frequencies (typically you can just buy a weather radio from Radio Shack and tune through the choices until you get one close enough to receive). These usually give out some sort of brief weather report for the surrounding area, to include any specific severe weather alerts. Never tried plotting out the reports on a map though. I want to say they also transmit weather reports for pilots in flight, but I can’t recall the details since it’s been over 15 years since I took the FAA Ground School course and never did follow up on chasing my pilot’s license. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/36 "2017-04-02T21:57:35Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > turns out the predicted 100% relative humidity was actually 99% … that seems a teeny tiny difference but it’s a difference that matters a whole lot … It is? What difference does it make? I realize that at 100% sweat theoretically does not evaporate but the 1% difference is not “a whole lot” in practice. And neither does 100% humidity mean that it must be raining or 99% not; rain only means that it is 100% up in the cloud layer. What did you mean by this? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/37 "2017-04-02T22:31:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It is? What difference does it make? I realize that at 100% sweat theoretically does not evaporate but the 1% difference is not “a whole lot” in practice. And neither does 100% humidity mean that it must be raining or 99% not; rain only means that it is 100% up in the cloud layer. What did you mean by this? Air at 99% RH does not precipitate water … of course neither does air at 100% … however, if the agency that caused the air to go from 99% to 100% continues, then water will begin to precipitate out of the air, as RH doesn’t go over 100% … this means that water is changing from it’s vapor state into it’s liquid state, and this action alone releases energy into the environment … actually one hell of a lot of energy … if some of this energy is fed back into the original agency above … even more water will precipitate which feeds back etc etc etc … In my example, we just narrowly missed crossing that threshold and didn’t form the feedback loop … so no rain storm … the point being 99% saturation is still _un_saturated … ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/38 "2017-04-02T22:58:12Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Air at 99% RH does not precipitate water … of course neither does air at 100% … however, if the agency that caused the air to go from 99% to 100% continues, then water will begin to precipitate out of the air, as RH doesn’t go over 100% … this means that water is changing from it’s vapor state into it’s liquid state, and this action alone releases energy into the environment … actually one hell of a lot of energy … if some of this energy is fed back into the original agency above … even more water will precipitate which feeds back etc etc etc … > > In my example, we just narrowly missed crossing that threshold and didn’t form the feedback loop … so no rain storm … the point being 99% saturation is still _un_saturated … OK. I think that completely answers any questions I have about your original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Number](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/number/32/242_2.png) [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/39 "2017-04-03T01:27:40Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The need to establish stations to report on what the weather is doing over _there_ right now–in order to predict what the weather will be doing over _here_ the day after tomorrow, and specifically in a military context–led to fascinating little side stories of history like [secret German weather stations in Greenland during World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_in_World_War_II#German_weather_stations) (Wikipedia link), which in turn sound like they could be the starting point of anything from a two-fisted war story to a comic book superhero plot to some kind of Lovecraftian science fiction/horror tale. (“A secret Nazi base in the remote frozen Arctic wastes! _Dun dun dunnn!_”) It doesn’t have any supernatural hellbeasts, but you might still want to check out _[Destination Gobi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destination_Gobi)_. It’s one of the better entries in the meteorology-themed action genre. Along with…_Twister_? I guess? > [@](#): > > Set during World War II, US Navy chief Sam McHale (Widmark) takes command of a unit of weather observers stranded behind Japanese lines in Inner Mongolia. McHale must lead his men across the treacherous Gobi Desert to the freedom of the seacoast. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556/40 "2017-04-03T01:57:39Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The smaller, rural stations still used map boards with Velcro pieces for the weathermap well into the late 1970’s. > > There were two or three map boards that slid to the side and revealed the next one underneath. Each map was already set up before the newscast. > > They had stick on pieces to represent highs, lows, thunderstorms, sunny, snow etc. They also had stick-ons for the temperature map. > > Once in awhile one would dangle loose or even drop off during the weather segment. The map got jarred sliding back and forth. I think YouTube has some of these old bloopers. I’m only 39, but you jogged a memory from my youth of Willard Scott putting little weather icons on a map (just before singin the praises of some lady who had just turned 100). OP here…thanks for all of the insightful replies! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-news-include-a-weather-forecast-before-satellites-if-so-how/783556.md?page=3)