# Did the Page FISA applications omit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620 "2018-07-26T15:00:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/181 "2018-07-29T01:51:21Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Who knows who lied for money? Maybe some of Steele’s Russian sources? > [How Ex-Spy Christopher Steele Compiled His Explosive Trump-Russia Doss | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/how-the-explosive-russian-dossier-was-compiled-christopher-steele) > But that would be Russian Collusion wouldn’t it? If only we had experts in the world who were experienced in raw intel from paid foreign sources, and the level of credence to give that information… We should try to form an organization that collects and analyzes such information, and maybe a secret court that works with them to ensure that subpoenas and warrants are only issued in cases where the evidence merits those measures, and we should appoint the people who work in the court by our lawfully elected representatives, and they should only appoint judges who they believe do have the ability to balance the quality of the data to the civil rights violations that are being requested. I think that would be wise. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/182 "2018-07-29T01:57:39Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Who knows who lied for money? Maybe some of Steele’s Russian sources? > [How Ex-Spy Christopher Steele Compiled His Explosive Trump-Russia Doss | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/how-the-explosive-russian-dossier-was-compiled-christopher-steele) > **But that would be Russian Collusion wouldn’t it?** No, “collusion” is when Americans help a foreign adversary to subvert and sabotage our election process. It appears only one American presidential candidate and his team did that. Which one was it, again? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/183 "2018-07-29T06:30:41Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > How have I shifted? Well, you’ve jumped from claim to claim and from source to source. Every time it’s pointed out that you’re wrong or your source is unreliable, you’ve shifted to another source. Or, y’know, a source already addressed. The point where you went back to Nunes was the point where I gave up on convincing you, because what you did was fundamentally dishonest. People explained why Nunes was a bad source, so you shifted to another source, and when _that_ source was called into question, _you went right back to Nunes_. If you’re willing to shift the goalposts and shift your claims like this, there is no possibility of rational debate. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/184 "2018-07-29T12:44:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > When Steele reported that Russia was favoring Trump, do you believe that to be a fabrication? After reading about Uranium One, I would have guessed they favored Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/185 "2018-07-29T12:50:06Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > No, “collusion” is when Americans help a foreign adversary to subvert and sabotage our election process. It appears only one American presidential candidate and his team did that. > > Which one was it, again? You seem to be implying Trump. Please enumerate the evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/186 "2018-07-29T13:05:26Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > After reading about Uranium One, I would have guessed they favored Clinton. Did you not see Putin at the press conference the other day? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/187 "2018-07-29T13:15:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, you’ve jumped from claim to claim and from source to source. Every time it’s pointed out that you’re wrong or your source is unreliable, you’ve shifted to another source. Or, y’know, a source already addressed. > > The point where you went back to Nunes was the point where I gave up on convincing you, because what you did was fundamentally dishonest. People explained why Nunes was a bad source, so you shifted to another source, and when _that_ source was called into question, _you went right back to Nunes_. If you’re willing to shift the goalposts and shift your claims like this, there is no possibility of rational debate. The Carter article says: “This bit of explosive information was revealed in an expose on Steele by The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer but the implications for the FBI are profound.” Is Jane Mayer a bad source too? So you are going with “The FBI didn’t know” instead of “Anyone reading the footnote would know”? I think that is a debate misstep, as the sources I cite point to they knew. The debate tactics of wording parsing and source attacking will be nullified if sources you can’t quibble over say it, and that may very well happen. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/188 "2018-07-29T13:15:25Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > There is also Nunes, saying the FBI knew. He is probably privy to classified info that others are not privy to. Except Nunes hasn’t been reading the classified material he has access to. Those who have read it tell him he is wrong and as it gets declassified he is publicly proven wrong. Of course it’s always easier to validate a conspiracy theory when you ignore all the evidence counter to it. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/189 "2018-07-29T13:17:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Did you not see Putin at the press conference the other day? No. Did he reveal he colluded with Trump, or deny it? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/190 "2018-07-29T13:20:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Except Nunes hasn’t been reading the classified material he has access to. Those who have read it tell him he is wrong and as it gets declassified he is publicly proven wrong. Of course it’s always easier to validate a conspiracy theory when you ignore all the evidence counter to it. I looked at the evidence and concluded there was no Trump Russia Conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/191 "2018-07-29T13:41:14Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I looked at the evidence and concluded there was no Trump Russia Conspiracy. So now you are privy to classified information? Or is this based simply on your denial of any evidence that wasn’t produced by you or other Putin Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/192 "2018-07-29T14:08:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So now you are privy to classified information? Or is this based simply on your denial of any evidence that wasn’t produced by you or other Putin Republicans? I do not have access to classified info. I am not a Republican, or any party. I think establishment Republicans and Democrats are a Uniparty, and there is just an illusion of a dichotomy. I think Trump is a true outsider. I have notuing to do with Putin. I think Russia is a relatively minor world player right now. I think Trump’s joke about the Russians finding Hillary’s emails motivated this farce. It particularly doesn’t work ok younger folks like me who grew up after the fall of the Soviet Union, and see Russia as a boogeyman as an outdated scare tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/193 "2018-07-29T14:19:32Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > No. Did he reveal he colluded with Trump, or deny it? > [@](#): > > Q President Putin, did you want President Trump to win the election? And did you direct any of your officials to help him do that? > > PRESIDENT PUTIN: (As interpreted.) Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the U.S.-Russia relationship back to normal. > > I think there can be three questions from the Russian pool. I did not edit that question or response in any way. [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-putin-russian-federation-joint-press-conference/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-putin-russian-federation-joint-press-conference/) Still think Putin wanted Clinton elected? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/194 "2018-07-29T14:34:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I did not edit that question or response in any way. > > [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-putin-russian-federation-joint-press-conference/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-putin-russian-federation-joint-press-conference/) > > Still think Putin wanted Clinton elected? I wouldn’t trust any world leader to always tell the truth. Heck, this could be on the level of a tactful white lie. Your same link quotes Putin as saying: “Once again, President Trump mentioned the issue of the so-called interference of Russia when the American elections, and I had to reiterate things I said several times, including during our personal contacts, that the Russian state has never interfered and is not going to interfere into internal American affairs, including the election process.” When do we believe him? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/195 "2018-07-29T14:49:19Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I wouldn’t trust any world leader to always tell the truth. Heck, this could be on the level of a tactful white lie. Your same link quotes Putin as saying: > “Once again, President Trump mentioned the issue of the so-called interference of Russia when the American elections, and I had to reiterate things I said several times, including during our personal contacts, that the Russian state has never interfered and is not going to interfere into internal American affairs, including the election process.” > When do we believe him? When his words matches what our intelligence community said about the matter. > **[8 U.S. Intelligence Groups Blame Russia for Meddling, but Trump Keeps...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/16/us/elections/russian-interference-statements-comments.html)** > > The heads of the national security agencies on Thursday said that Russia was still trying to influence United States elections, contradicting statements made by President Trump. > [@](#): > > Trump Trusts Putin’s Denial, but > Seven U.S. Intelligence Groups > Blame Russia for Election Meddling > > On Monday, President Trump continued to cast doubt on Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election, the consensus position of American intelligence agencies and both parties on Capitol Hill. > > The federal and congressional intelligence groups that have stated that Russia interfered in the election: > > 1. Central Intelligence Agency > > 2. Office of the Director of National Intelligence > > 3. F.B.I. > > 4. National Security Agency > > 5. Justice Department > > 6. House Intelligence Committee > > 7. Senate Intelligence Committee ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/196 "2018-07-29T14:51:48Z")
I’m completely perplexed by the lack of connection of many Trump supporters with the most basic elements of reality. 1. We know that our intelligence agencies assessed that Russia favored Trump in the election. 2. We know that Putin has a deep animosity for Clinton after he blamed her personally in public remarks after the 2011 anti-corruption/anti-Putin demonstrations. 3. We know that Putin literally said he favored Trump because Trump wanted better relations between the two countries. And yet, we have millions of people like **Jim** who just deny all of that, even though one need not go into any speculation about the depth of corruption from Trump associates like Manafort, Page, Stone, etc. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/197 "2018-07-29T15:00:05Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > After reading about Uranium One, I would have guessed they favored Clinton. What did you read? [Snopes](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/). > [@](#): > > The Uranium One Deal Was Not Clinton’s to Veto or Approve > > **Among the ways these accusations stray from the facts is in attributing a power of veto or approval to Secretary Clinton that she simply did not have**. Clinton was one of nine cabinet members and department heads that sit on the CFIUS, and the secretary of the treasury is its chairperson.\*\* CFIUS members are collectively charged with evaluating proposed foreign acquisitions for potential national security issues, then turning their findings over to the president. By law, the committee can’t veto a transaction; only the president can. \*\* > > **All nine federal agencies were required to approve the Uranium One transaction before it could go forward.** According to The New York Times, Clinton may not have even directly participated in the decision. Then-Assistant Secretary of State Jose Fernandez, whose job it was to represent the State Dept. on CFIUS, said Clinton “never intervened” in committee matters. Clinton herself has said she wasn’t personally involved. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/198 "2018-07-29T15:26:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m completely perplexed by the lack of connection of many Trump supporters with the most basic elements of reality. > > 1. We know that our intelligence agencies assessed that Russia favored Trump in the election. > 2. We know that Putin has a deep animosity for Clinton after he blamed her personally in public remarks after the 2011 anti-corruption/anti-Putin demonstrations. > 3. We know that Putin literally said he favored Trump because Trump wanted better relations between the two countries. > > And yet, we have millions of people like **Jim** who just deny all of that, even though one need not go into any speculation about the depth of corruption from Trump associates like Manafort, Page, Stone, etc. If they had evidence Trump collided with Russia he would have been out of office and probably imprisoned by now. Instead, recent reports say Mueller is looking to see if any of Trump’s tweets were too mean, and thus obstructed justice. How about obstructing the Executive Branch? That is really what is going on. Your three points about Putin\Russia are guesses at their opinions. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe Putin never made up his mind? Pick any country and think about their leader(s) and who they favored in the 2016 election. OK now what? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/199 "2018-07-29T15:29:19Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > I do not have access to classified info. I am not a Republican, or any party. I think establishment Republicans and Democrats are a Uniparty, and there is just an illusion of a dichotomy. I think Trump is a true outsider. I have notuing to do with Putin. I think Russia is a relatively minor world player right now. I think Trump’s joke about the Russians finding Hillary’s emails motivated this farce. And clearly what you are saying here relies on partial information, cherry-picked to get your sorry opinion. > [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > It particularly doesn’t work ok younger folks like me who grew up after the fall of the Soviet Union, and see Russia as a boogeyman as an outdated scare tactic. Ever heard the saying “meet the new boss, same as the old boss?” > **[Vladimir Putin | Biography, KGB, Political Career, & Facts](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-Putin)** > > Vladimir Putin is a Russian leader and former KGB officer who has shaped his nation’s political landscape for decades with a mix of strategic maneuvers, military aggression against Russia’s neighbors, and controversial policies. Out of the ashes of the former Soviet Union we are getting a still formidable foe: the one where gangsters and kleptocrats are acting globally. > **[Gangster capitalism and nostalgic authoritarianism in Trump’s America](https://www.salon.com/2017/12/03/gangster-capitalism-and-nostalgic-authoritarianism-in-trumps-america/)** > > In one year, the Trump regime has wrought immense damage to democracy, culture and thought. But there's new hope ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620/200 "2018-07-29T15:37:14Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > If they had evidence Trump collided with Russia he would have been out of office and probably imprisoned by now. [snip] Sorry, cannot continue reading more because on that Trump is only pushing a straw man, **the reason for Muller’s investigation is not collusion.** Trump and other sources are playing you like a fiddle. > **[John Oliver debunks Fox News' misleading Mueller investigation coverage](https://www.salon.com/2018/06/12/john-oliver-debunks-fox-news-coverage_partner/)** > > John Oliver reveals horrifying way Fox News is changing American minds on Trump investigations > [@](#): > > The HBO host showed several clips in which Fox personalities keep asking for evidence of collusion, saying that if Mueller can’t find it, no one is guilty. The reality is 20 people have been indicted thus far under the Russia investigation, and splinter investigations have been discovered in the process. > > **The investigation also isn’t actually about collusion, rather it’s about whether a person or the campaign conspired with the Russian government to infiltrate the 2016 election.** The Trump allies maintain there is “zero evidence” to confirm anything. The reality, however, is that no one has any idea what has been found under the secret grand jury. In many cases, Mueller’s office has managed to keep things secret for months, until public court documents are filed and reported. > > “So, saying the investigation has to shut down if there’s no collusion is like saying a game of Scrabble has to end because you fit all of the letters in your mouth,” Oliver said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-page-fisa-applications-omit/818620.md?page=11)